# Let's Debate Afghanistan In The Pit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812 "2010-07-15T18:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/21 "2010-07-16T01:08:07Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Please, folks (fuck you all), let’s focus on Afghanistan as a typical extension of our corporate/govt policies since the govt declared corporations people with big feet and appetites. > > Let’s stay with the OP, please, fuck you all. Well, fuck _me_, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/22 "2010-07-16T01:13:39Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, fuck _me_, I guess. OK. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/23 "2010-07-16T01:17:41Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > OK. I’m happily married, but thanks, fuck you all. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/24 "2010-07-16T01:27:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So we’re gonna do drone flyovers of a hostile country? Where will they refuel from and be based from? Pakistan? I suppose they’d be happy if most of the drones were flying the other way. 😃 > > In any case, I’m not an intelligence officer, but I’m pretty sure you need intel to focus your satellites, you can’t just search the whole country. I’m sure we could bribe someone to let us base our drones for less than what the war costs us. When we pull out, let the Afghans know that we reserve the right to bomb terror camps. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/25 "2010-07-16T02:40:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, fuck _me_, I guess. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’m happily married, but thanks, fuck you all. [del]And fuck you, your wife and your children’s children[/del]. So far, given the lack of direct rebuttal to the OP, I declare it Resolved: We Should Not Be In Afghanistan. Fuck anyone who disagrees (without cites) to any particular in the OP. And, as ever, fya. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/26 "2010-07-16T02:41:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Satellites, drone flyovers. I’m sure there will be ways to get in touch with informants. Reliable intelligence always has a human component to it. Infiltration. Its worth its weight in gold **IF** the informant is reliable. Satellites and drones are nice for what they do but its not the same as having actionable intel on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/27 "2010-07-16T02:42:59Z")
Resolved: Meh. If we can find someone willing to shoot at U.S. troops, then we should go there and shoot back. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/28 "2010-07-16T02:44:36Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Reliable intelligence always has a human component to it. Infiltration. Its worth its weight in gold **IF** the informant is reliable. > > Satellites and drones are nice for what they do but its not the same as having actionable intel on the ground. Israel? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/29 "2010-07-16T02:49:38Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Resolved: Meh. > > If we can find someone willing to shoot at U.S. troops, … Only half the fucking world which we’ve armed at taxpayer expense. fya. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/30 "2010-07-16T03:11:35Z")
Can’t we just selectively nuke Afghanistan and be done with it? Nuclear weapons aren’t nearly as bad as people make them out to be in the long-term. Hell, we have nuked our own soil and lots of other places as well. Nuking Japan was the best thing that ever happened to them. I don’t see why we can’t just nuke Afghanistan into the 1st world one bomb at a time. I know I try a lot harder when someone threatens to kill my whole extended family if I don’t toe the line. Pull the U.S. troops back and start lobbing one a day until there is significant improvement in behavior. It is basic psychology and it will work. Flowers don’t grow well in radioactive fertilizer either. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/31 "2010-07-16T03:14:22Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Listen, asshole, I know pizza because I grew up 30 mi out of Grand Central, NYC, the home of pizza. > > It was Carlo’s, a mile and a half from my home. The only toppings offered were extra cheese and anchovies. > > The first time I tried it, I ate the crust and loved it. But I noticed that my wealthier, pizza savvy friends left the rinds on the pan. I still do to this day. > > Fuck you all. Christ this post is funny as hell. I was just re-reading this thread for some reason, and I guess I missed this one the first time. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/32 "2010-07-16T03:24:24Z")
At this point, the “al-Queda” and “We have to kill them over there” arguments are complete BS. That much is clear. And we’re not going to go all in on a proper COIN strategy (which isn’t even really a strategy, but don’t get me started). There’s absolutely no will to stay there long-term. What good would it do? So what are we going to do? Will it be another surge? That only “succeeded” in Iraq because, compared to Afghanistan, Iraq is stable and functional. But that doesn’t mean that the surge will have worked in Iraq at the end of the day. That was all marketing for the people back home. Make it look like we’re doing something important, hope for some level of stability for a little while, declare victory and leave. That shit isn’t going to work in Afghanistan. We can’t even control the road between Kabul and Kandahar. It seems to me that all we’re doing is maintaining strategic flexibility in the Middle East, at exorbitant cost, by having our forces in position to move against Iran or Pakistan. Why? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/33 "2010-07-16T03:33:20Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Israel? Care to elaborate? > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > At this point, the “al-Queda” and “We have to kill them over there” arguments are complete BS. That much is clear. > > And we’re not going to go all in on a proper COIN strategy (which isn’t even really a strategy, but don’t get me started). There’s absolutely no will to stay there long-term. What good would it do? > > So what are we going to do? Will it be another surge? That only “succeeded” in Iraq because, compared to Afghanistan, Iraq is stable and functional. But that doesn’t mean that the surge will have worked in Iraq at the end of the day. That was all marketing for the people back home. Make it look like we’re doing something important, hope for some level of stability for a little while, declare victory and leave. That shit isn’t going to work in Afghanistan. We can’t even control the road between Kabul and Kandahar. > > It seems to me that all we’re doing is maintaining strategic flexibility in the Middle East, at exorbitant cost, by having our forces in position to move against Iran or Pakistan. Why? I still believe in the mission in Afghanistan. “Where Empires Go To Die” bedamned. We have gained a foothold against extremists in that region and we should continue to fight them, no matter the cost. Not having another 9/11 (or Madrid, or London) is worth it (to me). If we conduct ourselves properly and induce the general populace into the idea that they can think and vote for themselves, then it can work. I realize I’m being incredibly naive here. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/34 "2010-07-16T04:23:12Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I still believe in the mission in Afghanistan. “Where Empires Go To Die” bedamned. We have gained a foothold against extremists in that region and we should continue to fight them, no matter the cost. Not having another 9/11 (or Madrid, or London) is worth it (to me). If we conduct ourselves properly and induce the general populace into the idea that they can think and vote for themselves, then it can work. > > I realize I’m being incredibly naive here. How does spending a shitload of money there (under)manning remote outposts prevent another 9/11? Even the military admits that there’s like 400 al-Queda left, and they’ve likely moved to Pakistan. It doesn’t matter what badasses we are, we’re not suited for this type of mission. ---
**Author:** ![Hallucinex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba9def/32.png) [@Hallucinex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hallucinex)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/35 "2010-07-16T05:45:30Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > You might know Evo as the popular indigenous president of Bolivia. …or as the guy who thinks that you can [catch the gay](http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/04/22/morales_chicken_hormones_will_make_you_gay) from eating chicken ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/36 "2010-07-16T07:04:39Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Can’t we just selectively nuke Afghanistan and be done with it? Nuclear weapons aren’t nearly as bad as people make them out to be in the long-term. Hell, we have nuked our own soil and lots of other places as well. Nuking Japan was the best thing that ever happened to them. I don’t see why we can’t just nuke Afghanistan into the 1st world one bomb at a time. I know I try a lot harder when someone threatens to kill my whole extended family if I don’t toe the line. Pull the U.S. troops back and start lobbing one a day until there is significant improvement in behavior. It is basic psychology and it will work. Flowers don’t grow well in radioactive fertilizer either. That would be monstrously evil, turn the entire world against us, and ensure that we have millions more enemies. And it wouldn’t encourage anyone to cooperate with us on anything, since we show no reluctance to attack people who try to cooperate too. Besides which, we’d be so hated that cooperating with us would just get you killed by your friends and family; that happens in Iraq, and we haven’t even gone on the genocidal nuclear spree you are advocating there. It wouldn’t help us in the slightest. nor would we deserve to be helped, or to be anything other than utterly destroyed if we acted as you suggest. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/37 "2010-07-16T07:37:46Z")
> [@EVIL\_COW\_PIE](#): > > Keep in mind that this isn’t Nazi Germany we are fighting where you kill one guy and the whole thing topples. Goddammit, Nazi Germany wasn’t like that either ! Hitler’s death did jack shit, he wasn’t a necromancer and his army didn’t poof into dust the second he put a bullet in his brain. Germany toppled because it had been ground to fine paste on two fronts, for years on end. It toppled because it had \*nothing \*left to go on, not even young men to send to their deaths. Had Hitler died during Nazi Germany’s heydays, someone else would have taken over the nuthouse and business would have continued as usual. Probably Himmler. Sorry for the side rant. It’s just one of those notions that annoy me for no reason. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/38 "2010-07-16T10:02:47Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Had Hitler died during Nazi Germany’s heydays, someone else would have taken over the nuthouse and business would have continued as usual. Probably Himmler. Or before May’ 42, [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich). He had all of Hitler’s vicious ruthlessness, without the psychotic rage, and was 15 years younger. Somebody who might have acutally listened to his generals… Thank you Jozef Gabčík and Jan Kubiš! As for the OP, fuck the Taliban and anyone who defends them. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/39 "2010-07-16T11:06:31Z")
Say what you fucking will, have you noticed nobody at all (not even me) is defending the fucking war in Fucking Iraq? Fuck George Bush. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/40 "2010-07-16T11:28:45Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > How does spending a shitload of money there (under)manning remote outposts prevent another 9/11? Even the military admits that there’s like 400 al-Queda left, and they’ve likely moved to Pakistan. > > **It doesn’t matter what badasses we are, we’re not suited for this type of mission**. That was a big part of the problem in Iraq, too. We weren’t suited for this type of mission. But we are becoming better and better at it. Our stupid civilian leaders in the early 2000’s should have foreseen the type of conflict both wars would devolve into instead of having some misplaced grandiose notion that we would be greeted as liberators. And can you cite this “400 Al-Qaeda left” statement? This is like the second or third time I’ve seen someone use that number on here and I’ve never heard that claim before. Look, I agree that we need to get out of Afghanistan, and soon. But not until our military leaders are confident that the country can at least keep its government from collapsing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=3)