# Let's Debate Afghanistan In The Pit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812 "2010-07-15T18:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/61 "2010-07-18T23:47:05Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/08/gates-names-marine-gen-mattis-central-command/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/07/08/gates-names-marine-gen-mattis-central-command/) I wish that were true. Pfft. Those are Marines you’re talking about. They don’t count. This is how Marines think, in the immortal words of Colonel Jessup: [sic] “…my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to.” It is what it is. You need the Marines, they are good killers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/62 "2010-07-18T23:58:09Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to. I always thought it was _“stand opposed”_ – as in _“you can thank me or you can challenge me to a fight; I honestly won’t give a crap either way.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/63 "2010-07-19T00:42:51Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Pfft. Those are Marines you’re talking about. They don’t count. > > This is how Marines think, in the immortal words of Colonel Jessup: [sic] “…my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don’t want the truth because deep down in places you don’t talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don’t give a damn what you think you are entitled to.” > > It is what it is. You need the Marines, they are good killers. It’s not me they protect, much less “freedom”, it’s the values of right wing fanatics and corporate profits. They do very little that has to do with preserving anyone’s freedom, and usually they are fighting against freedom. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/64 "2010-07-20T00:51:15Z")
[Endgame in Afghanistan | HuffPost Latest News](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jayne-lyn-stahl/endgame-in-afghanistan_b_650664.html) Wars are about money. No one cares if a population is mistreated or suppressed unless it allows you to exploit their country.Then the imaginary civil rights violations become important. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/65 "2010-07-20T01:05:09Z")
[http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0719/richard-haass-afghanistan-its-worth-it/](http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0719/richard-haass-afghanistan-its-worth-it/) here is the head of the militant Council of Foreign Relations saying we do not belong in Afghanistan. We have nothing to win there. Unless taking the minerals from a foreign land is the American thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/66 "2010-07-20T01:07:13Z")
Depends on the war. Canada kept away from Iraq II because it was not a just war, but participated and continues to participate in Afghanistan to promote human rights and civil rights, and to assist in nation building. Financial benefit for Canada or explotation by Canada? Nah. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/67 "2010-07-20T01:32:42Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Depends on the war. Canada kept away from Iraq II because it was not a just war, but participated and continues to participate in Afghanistan to promote human rights and civil rights, and to assist in nation building. Financial benefit for Canada or explotation by Canada? Nah. Do you think Afghan civil rights will emerge after this? Do you believe justice and peace are our end game? Lots of countries work for us. They forgo their national interests to stay on the good side of the worlds biggest bully. We have lots of financial connections and treaties. The internationals financiers have common aims. There is no nation building possible in Afghanistan. Our military admits that. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/68 "2010-07-20T01:49:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s not me they protect Yes, it actually is. They are doing what they were trained to do and are ordered to do. Please don’t mention Nuremburg, as it isn’t applicable. Obviously we are involved in wars these recent decades that are of questionable intent or value. But don’t blame the soldier…blame your elected officials that control the soldier. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/69 "2010-07-20T15:14:57Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Yes, it actually is. They are doing what they were trained to do and are ordered to do. Please don’t mention Nuremburg, as it isn’t applicable. Obviously we are involved in wars these recent decades that are of questionable intent or value. But don’t blame the soldier…blame your elected officials that control the soldier. The soldiers follow orders and mostly fight to keep themselves and other soldiers alive. The suicide rate for soldiers is at a all time high. It is easy to confuse soldiers who are just trying to help other soldiers who are also fighting in horrible conditions and assume they fight because they believe in the mission. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/70 "2010-07-20T17:27:40Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Please don’t mention Nuremburg, as it isn’t applicable. Obviously not - American forces are immune to ICC prosecution for war crimes. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/71 "2010-07-20T18:01:35Z")
The point is that Al Qeada does not need Afghanistan. They moved to northern Pakistan already. The Afghanis don’t want them back. It is no fun getting attacked by America for something you don’t believe in anyway. They have havens in Yemen and a few African countries. They have walked out of the line of fire. How big of a force does Al Qeada need to plan . Five or six? They should be hunted down in covert police actions. A large scale war won’t work. We can out gun them so they just back off until we get bored and leave. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/72 "2010-07-21T19:22:26Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I feel for the Afghanie people. They don’t want the Taliban who rule with an iron fist and keep them under strong religious backwards rule. They don’t want Al Qeada who promises nothing but war and confiscation of their wealth to wage it. Then behind door number 3 in Karzai ,an American drug puppet ,who has installed a drug corporate and corrupt rule. They must be feeling hopeless and powerless. And guess what would happen if any of these people you feel sorry for now were to gain power? They would be no different than Karzai and probably worse. The people in Afghanistan don’t have the culture, will, and experience to run governments without corruption or democratically as people here seem to want them to. In order to instill that culture it would take years of colonial rule where the children would require secular educations in a secure society where they could learn in peace. But, no one has the balls to do what is necessary for this to happen. And I’d still like to see where this pipeline is being built that supposedly was what this war was all about. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/73 "2010-07-21T19:26:49Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > And guess what would happen if any of these people you feel sorry for now were to gain power? They would be no different than Karzai and probably worse. The people in Afghanistan don’t have the culture, will, and experience to run governments without corruption or democratically as people here seem to want them to. > In order to instill that culture it would take years of colonial rule where the children would require secular educations in a secure society where they could learn in peace. > But, no one has the balls to do what is necessary for this to happen. > > And I’d still like to see where this pipeline is being built that supposedly was what this war was all about. The" worse that Karzai "is unsubstantiated claim based on your feeling. That is no argument . All the choices are bad for the people. I hate our tax money going to thieves like the Karzai government. I feel if we give money, we have to administer it. Shipping it to warlords and state puppets is a waste. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/74 "2010-07-21T19:30:01Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > It is what it is. You need the Marines, they are good killers. That reminded me of a relative that was training to become a Green Beret. I asked him once if he ever considered becoming a Marine. He said “No way!” “We call them bullet catchers”.. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/75 "2010-07-21T19:52:59Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The" worse that Karzai "is unsubstantiated claim based on your feeling. Okay, how about some examples of countries with a similar culture who don’t have the same issues. I’m sure it won’t be hard to find at least two for every one you state. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/76 "2010-07-22T15:28:59Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > And guess what would happen if any of these people you feel sorry for now were to gain power? They would be no different than Karzai and probably worse. The people in Afghanistan don’t have the culture, will, and experience to run governments without corruption or democratically as people here seem to want them to. > In order to instill that culture it would take years of colonial rule where the children would require secular educations in a secure society where they could learn in peace. > But, no one has the balls to do what is necessary for this to happen. > > And I’d still like to see where this pipeline is being built that supposedly was what this war was all about. [IT'S ALL ABOUT OIL!](http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/oil.html) From Cheney’s own food hole. You can not divorce the oil interests from our latest war making excursion. You can not pretend it is not about money. If you really believe in the free market, you will buy everything in the marketplace. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/77 "2010-07-22T15:42:18Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > And guess what would happen if any of these people you feel sorry for now were to gain power? They would be no different than Karzai and probably worse. The people in Afghanistan don’t have the culture, will, and experience to run governments without corruption or democratically as people here seem to want them to. > In order to instill that culture it would take years of colonial rule where the children would require secular educations in a secure society where they could learn in peace. > But, no one has the balls to do what is necessary for this to happen. All that would do is teach them how to build a society designed to be exploited. That’s what colonial rule does; that’s what it’s for. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/78 "2010-07-22T15:45:27Z")
Sure, where’s it being built? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/79 "2010-07-22T15:46:12Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Okay, how about some examples of countries with a similar culture who don’t have the same issues. I’m sure it won’t be hard to find at least two for every one you state. I am not sure what you refer to, but if you want places we interfered with that did not institute a better form of government that would help the people heres a small list Haiti Iraq Afghanistan Kuwait Panama Philippines Libya Nicaragua Chili Guatemala Dominican Republic Indonesia Cuba Vietnam Puerto Rico El Salvador Honduras ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/80 "2010-07-22T15:48:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I am not sure what you refer to, but if you want places we interfered with that did not institute a better form of government that would help the people heres a small list … Iran [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=5)