# Let's Debate Afghanistan In The Pit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812 "2010-07-15T18:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/101 "2010-07-24T20:43:05Z")
[Fordham University](http://www.fordham.edu/economics/vinod/nyt9.htm) No we should not tolerate international bribery. It results in the poor people getting cheated. The leaders suck up the money while allowing the corporations to cheat the country out of their resources. The workers are exploited by us. We do it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/102 "2010-07-25T04:41:30Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > We do not do it for the citizens of the land. In case you haven’t figured it out, but who do you think are accepting bribes? It seems you accept the premise of ‘white man’s burden’ to stop the ‘brown’ people from accepting bribes from us, or from each other. You also don’t seem to understand that bribes tend to be asked for, or strongly suggested, or outright demanded, not freely given. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/103 "2010-07-25T07:51:37Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > We do not do it for the citizens of the land. > > In case you haven’t figured it out, but who do you think are accepting bribes? > > It seems you accept the premise of ‘white man’s burden’ to stop the ‘brown’ people from accepting bribes from us, or from each other. You also don’t seem to understand that bribes tend to be asked for, or strongly suggested, or outright demanded, not freely given. Could just enforce your own laws against your own citizens. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/104 "2010-07-25T15:19:06Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > We do not do it for the citizens of the land. > > In case you haven’t figured it out, but who do you think are accepting bribes? > > It seems you accept the premise of ‘white man’s burden’ to stop the ‘brown’ people from accepting bribes from us, or from each other. You also don’t seem to understand that bribes tend to be asked for, or strongly suggested, or outright demanded, not freely given. You can not be that wrong without trying. The money goes into the pockets of the few at the top. It does not get to the people who just suffer more the top get ricer and more corrupt. Karzai and his chosen few and building up bank accounts in Switzerland and when it gets too hot for them to stay, they will run off and live like kings on our tax money. I never mentioned color, although we do exploit the weaker countries .They happen to be countries of color . They have bad governments with leaders who can easily be corrupted by a chance to get American money. Read "Confessions of a Economic Hitman’ and see how it works. We move in and offer a poor country a chance to become modernized through Bechtel or Haliburton, and then we own them. they can never pay us back. So we get rights to all their resources. Their government works for the corporations. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/105 "2010-07-25T17:24:46Z")
I’ve had guys in customs ask if I’d bring in booze for them to ‘facilitate’ me getting through quicker. None of them looked like they were running the country. The reason the corruption exists is because of the culture that allows it. If companies are bribing people it is because it is expected by the locals who run the countries. They allow it, and only they can stop it. But because it runs throughout the culture it is very difficult to curtail. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/106 "2010-07-25T17:29:05Z")
Back to the point about Karzai. If he is corrupt it is not because someone put him into power. Even if the Afghani’s elected their leader (although I though they had Karzai) that leader is likely to be just as corrupt as Karzai himself. And likely to be a Taliban nut job, or worse, too. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/107 "2010-07-25T18:18:13Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Can’t we just selectively nuke Afghanistan and be done with it? Nuclear weapons aren’t nearly as bad as people make them out to be in the long-term. Hell, we have nuked our own soil and lots of other places as well. Nuking Japan was the best thing that ever happened to them. I don’t see why we can’t just nuke Afghanistan into the 1st world one bomb at a time. I know I try a lot harder when someone threatens to kill my whole extended family if I don’t toe the line. Pull the U.S. troops back and start lobbing one a day until there is significant improvement in behavior. It is basic psychology and it will work. Flowers don’t grow well in radioactive fertilizer either. That is the worst idea ever. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/108 "2010-07-25T19:22:32Z")
Well thanks, everyone. I think we agree that, as far as any taxpayer is concerned, we should not be in Afghanistan. Unfortunately, the tax paying electorate has nothing to say but yes or no to whatever foreign and domestic policies are put in place in their name, no matter where you come from. Get it, world? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/109 "2010-07-25T20:18:15Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’ve had guys in customs ask if I’d bring in booze for them to ‘facilitate’ me getting through quicker. None of them looked like they were running the country. Well, you see, they are just the local party workers. To keep 'em vigilant and loyal , they’re allowed to pick the low hanging fruit. Meanwhile, our ‘elected’ favorite and his buddies kick back on piles of taxpayer cash and arms. > [@](#): > > The reason the corruption exists is because of the culture that allows it. And of which culture do we speak? The briber or the bribed? When we move in, no matter how unfair and unjust the system in place is, we always reinforce it for profit. OTOH, if a truly popular regime that threatens future profit happens to be in place, we have no compunction in overthrowing it. So, who’s ultimately responsible, **Uzi**? > [@](#): > > If companies are bribing people it is because it is expected by the locals who run the countries. Simply because we leave them no choice. > [@](#): > > They allow it, and only they can stop it. But because it runs throughout the culture it is very difficult to curtail. Yada. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/110 "2010-07-25T20:39:29Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > And of which culture do we speak? The briber or the bribed? When we move in, no matter how unfair and unjust the system in place is, we always reinforce it for profit. Collectivist cultures. Tribalist cultures. The culture predominant in the ME. Speak for yourself. I’ve already told you we’ve lost money by not bribing people. > [@](#): > > OTOH, if a truly popular regime that threatens future profit happens to be in place, we have no compunction in overthrowing it. Yes, we overthrew the Taliban. Very popular government that one. > [@](#): > > So, who’s ultimately responsible, **Uzi**? The one asking for the bribe, of course. Why would anyone give money away when they didn’t need to? > [@](#): > > Simply because we leave them no choice. I’ve already given an example of locals asking for bribes from locals. You just want to blame someone from the West as you seem to think that we are the only people in the world who cause grief for others. You seem to think that the human race is actually made up of us (the exploiters and evil peoples of the world) and them (the noble savage, who if only left alone would live in a natural paradise at one with nature). ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/111 "2010-07-25T21:25:46Z")
Afghanistan was a corrupt country when we moved in. We did not make it better. We made it worse. When money gets bigger it exacerbates corruption. The top thieves get even more power and bigger weapons. They hire bigger armies to protect them and do their bidding. When we moved in, the drug growers had been stopped and the land was growing food. Now it is back like it was, a huge drug operation. We have done a disservice to the people . Karzai’s brother is reputed to be the king pin of the Afghan drug trade. It will not be stopped. Between drug money and American tax money, the Karzai people are getting extremely rich. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/112 "2010-07-25T21:41:41Z")
See, you can say something we agree on. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/113 "2010-07-25T22:42:18Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > See, you can say something we agree on. I disagree. The point is we should not be there. No good is coming out of it unless you are a contractor or munitions manufacturer. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/114 "2010-07-25T23:15:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The point is we should not be there. Yes, we shouldn’t. We are not willing to change the culture to eliminate the corruption endemic within it and give everyone a chance to benefit from the responsible exploration and development of their natural resources. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/115 "2010-07-26T00:31:05Z")
[Afghanistan War Logs: WikiLeaks Releasing Over 90,000 Documents In 'Afghan War Diary' | HuffPost The World Post](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/25/afghanistan-war-logs-wikileaks_n_658660.html) Wikileaks has released thousands of documents they say show how the war is a failure. We have killed thousands of Afghanis and made many, many enemies while not making any headway. Lets stop this madness. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/116 "2010-07-26T01:00:04Z")
[http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0725/leaked-documents-claim-pakistans-isi-directing-afghan-insurgency/](http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0725/leaked-documents-claim-pakistans-isi-directing-afghan-insurgency/) Among those documents are ones that say Pakistan ISI is directing the Afghanis we are fighting. This is a stupid clusterfuck and we should get out. Pakistan is collecting American tax money and pretending to be our allies. As usual we are being looted and made fools out of. Please describe what victory would look like. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/117 "2010-07-26T04:11:45Z")
“Not making ANY headway”? That’s just ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/118 "2010-07-26T04:37:13Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > As usual we are being looted and made fools out of. Okay, now I’m confused. I thought we were looting them! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/119 "2010-07-26T11:33:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Okay, now I’m confused. I thought we were looting them! They learned quickly. The pupil is now the master. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/120 "2010-07-26T11:42:28Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > We are not willing to change the culture to eliminate the corruption endemic within it and give everyone a chance to benefit from the responsible exploration and development of their natural resources. As if we could change it. Or had any interest in making the place fairer; Americans don’t even like making things fairer for their fellow Americans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=7)