# Let's Debate Afghanistan In The Pit. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 15, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812 "2010-07-15T18:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/161 "2010-08-01T21:41:46Z")
The whole bloody thread is you claiming that corporations are corrupt, keep governments in power who wouldn’t otherwise be in power, and are backed by the military. It is kind of late now to say, “Bwuh?”, and act all innocent, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/162 "2010-08-01T23:04:35Z")
I’m gonna back up Uzi here, so I pose the question to the OP and Gonzomax since I guess I will receive a cliched anti war reply sooner or later, anyway the question is quite simple, if the US leaves Afghanistan, like you wish, just packs up and goes, what do you think will replace the current Afghan government, and morally, would it be the right thing to do considering all the alternatives? I await your response. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/163 "2010-08-02T13:14:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > The whole bloody thread is you claiming that corporations are corrupt, keep governments in power who wouldn’t otherwise be in power, and are backed by the military. It is kind of late now to say, “Bwuh?”, and act all innocent, don’t you think? _Some_ people have been aware of and vocal about the problem for a long time. Up to your ears in the trough, you haven’t heard. The OP is actually about ending our adventure in Afghanistan on military, financial and humanitarian grounds. You have been provided ample cites by both **Gonzo** and myself to justify the OP. The few that you’ve actually chosen to address have received your standard one-note rejoinder, “You’re wrong.” I expect that will be your response to this. > [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > I’m gonna back up Uzi here, so I pose the question to the OP and Gonzomax since I guess I will receive a cliched anti war reply sooner or later, anyway the question is quite simple, if the US leaves Afghanistan, like you wish, just packs up and goes, what do you think will replace the current Afghan government, and morally, would it be the right thing to do considering all the alternatives? … We don’t give a shit. Any govt friendly to corporate interests is just fine. Let me refer you to the OP. > [@](#): > > Prior to the year 2000, all thru the Clinton administration, it was just fine that the Taliban was the world’s largest heroin dealer and makin’ lots of money doing it. In 2000, the Taliban, to make their regime respectable to the world, banned poppy cultivation and by early 2001, poppies had all but been eradicated. Our ‘war’ on drugs should be so successful. But then > **[IT'S ALL ABOUT OIL!](https://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/oil.html)** > [@](#): > > Dick Cheney, now US vice-president but then chief executive of a major oil services company, remarked: “I cannot think of a time when we have had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian.” But the oil and gas there is worthless until it is moved. The only route which makes both political and economic sense is through Afghanistan. We offered the Taliban a deal for their cooperation. > [@](#): > > But, confronted with Taliban’s refusal to accept US conditions, “this rationale of energy security changed into a military one”, … > > “At one moment during the negotiations, the US representatives told the Taliban, ‘either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs,’” Brisard said in an interview in Paris. You have no more talent for dancing than does **Uzi** although you sing the same song. You guys are going to have to come up with something for side B. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/164 "2010-08-02T14:31:12Z")
> [@](#): > > **adhay** > We don’t give a shit. Any govt friendly to corporate interests is just fine. Let me refer you to the OP. But ‘we’ do give a shit, it’s the raison detre for us being there you dumbass, and if the Taliban were ‘friendly’ to those evil corporate interests, then it wouldn’t be in their interests to have Al Queda in Afghanistan. There’s a little thing called 9/11 which pretty much provides the rationale for the actual conflict. This isn’t Iraq, there’s an actual legitimate reason for going in there. Not to mention that Hamid Karzais government enjoys, even after the corruption scandal, a good measure of support. \*Hamid Karzai as President of Afghanistan for 2010 Excellent- 28% Good- 44% Fair- 19% Poor- 8% No Opinion- 1% \* > **[11\_01\_10\_afghanpoll.pdf](https://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/11_01_10_afghanpoll.pdf)** > [@](#): > > We offered the Taliban a deal for their cooperation. Yes we did, and? Remember, we only invaded and deposed that government because it was responsible for allowing a terrorist organisation to attack the US on it’s soil. And NATO and US and neighbouring regions all accept that the Karzai government is a hell of a lot better than the prospect of any Taliban government, which I might add, only has 6% support within the country. So again, I ask you and Gonzo, since we’re terribly unenlightened folk, if the US leaves Afghanistan, like you wish, just packs up and goes, what do you think will replace the current Afghan government, and morally, would it be the right thing to do considering all the alternatives? > [@](#): > > You have no more talent for dancing than does Uzi although you sing the same song. You guys are going to have to come up with something for side B. Insult all you want, however I’ll always have the upper hand because I rely on facts, where as you rely on emotion. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/165 "2010-08-02T16:30:34Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > But then > > [IT'S ALL ABOUT OIL!](http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/oil.html) Okay, so where is this magical pipeline? Also, where is the suggestion in your link that they invade any country to promote US interests? It looks pretty benign on the face of it: A committee investigating the importance of a particular region in the world to its interests. I’m sure they have one for Canada, too, but I’m not too worried that bombers will be flying overhead anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/166 "2010-08-02T18:44:32Z")
Our argument, such as it is, is not with the Taliban, it’s with Al Qeda, our friends, the Saudis. After 9/11, the Taliban offered to hand Osama over for trial IF we produced some evidence of his involvement. We refused. I can understand why. OBL and most of the hijackers were Saudis and SA is our “friend” with the deep oil pockets. It is well documented that AQ has moved to Pakistan and there are few left in Afghanistan. So what does Afghanistan look like after we graciously withdraw in a timely manner? We turn it over to the Taliban with 2 conditions. 1. Allow the UN to seal the Pakistani border. Allow Afghanistani refugees to return and contain the Saudis and their sympathizers in Pakistan. With that done, we can lean on Pakistan to lean on AQ when they have nowhere to run. 2. Agree to encourage opium production for medicinal uses and let the UN set prices and oversee distribution. Suddenly, everyone’s prosperous, corruption is eliminated and, as the world’s foremost morphine producer, for the first time since time began, Afghanistan is a nation with a real place in the world. And one of the few with a well-cared for populace and sustainable agriculture. I predict the Taliban would jump on it. We might sweeten the offer to include our clearing their country of our unexploded ordinance before we go. That would be polite. Of course, there’s a downside to turning it over to the Taliban. Aside from Haliburton’s downsizing, it’s that hard-core Islamic thing. Burkas? Beheading? Nose stuck in the Qran forever? No cable? Yes, that’s a nut we’ll have to swallow for a few years. Unthreatened, Islam has no problem with new ideas. Threatened, they retreat into jihad. Take your choice, people. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/167 "2010-08-02T19:08:09Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Yes, that’s a nut we’ll have to swallow for a few years. What is this we shit? It is unlikely that it will be your head that is removed from your shoulders, or you who will have to wear the burkha and be beaten or stoned for not doing so. And all because you don’t want to get your hands dirty and clean up the mess. Lovely. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/168 "2010-08-02T19:19:24Z")
[Durand Line - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durand_Line) Good luck sealing the border. It is 1600 miles of mountainous terrain. Pakistan and Afghanistan have fought wars over the border. They do not even agree on what the border is. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/169 "2010-08-03T15:08:54Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > Yes, that’s a nut we’ll have to swallow for a few years. > > What is this we shit? It is unlikely that it will be your head that is removed from your shoulders, or you who will have to wear the burkha and be beaten or stoned for not doing so. And all because you don’t want to get your hands dirty and clean up the mess. Lovely. Yes, I’m no more likely to be beheaded or get my hands dirty on the ground than you are, dufus. And, while I consider all religion to be institutionalized superstition and any which relegate women to be chattel to be especially pernicious (Islam is not alone) I am sure of two things. 1. It is not our fucking place to militarily change things 2. What we’ve accomplished in nine years of occupation has not been worth the price to anyone but the war profiteers and the drug lords. Get a fucking life. And respond to some cites or stfu. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/170 "2010-08-03T15:33:18Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Yes, I’m no more likely to be beheaded or get my hands dirty on the ground than you are, dufus. And yet I am the one who worked in Yemen training locals who eventually replaced me. I did get my hands dirty and there was a chance I could have been attacked by terrorists. > [@](#): > > 1. It is not our fucking place to militarily change things We went there with the military to change things. We both agree that we haven’t necessarily changed things for the better. > [@](#): > > 1. What we’ve accomplished in nine years of occupation has not been worth the price to anyone but the war profiteers and the drug lords. Because we haven’t done what is necessary to change the basics like the culture that allows thugs to run the country and keep women in chains. > [@](#): > > Get a fucking life. And respond to some cites or stfu. I’ve responded to your cites. There is no pipeline no matter what you seem to think caused the war. Maybe you should go to New York and see if there is an actual hole in the ground rather than keep going on about how there is some big oil conspiracy that caused the invasion. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/171 "2010-08-03T17:57:45Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > > [@Muffin](#): > > > > Not where I live. YMMV. Either way, I don’t have a problem with corporations using computers. > > Don’t be obtuse. Don’t be rude when the facts contradict you. Where I live, the gas retailers set their own mark-up above the cost that they pay to the distributors. That you do not believe this is your problem, so drop the nastiness. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/172 "2010-08-03T18:17:12Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > We do not do it for the citizens of the land. > > In case you haven’t figured it out, but who do you think are accepting bribes? > > It seems you accept the premise of ‘white man’s burden’ to stop the ‘brown’ people from accepting bribes from us, or from each other. You also don’t seem to understand that bribes tend to be asked for, or strongly suggested, or outright demanded, not freely given. That was a dishonest response. "white mans burden’. They can not take money (your tax money) from us unless we offer it. We have the military power. They can not extort from us. We buy off the Afghanis so they will fight for us. When the other side offers more or threatens their families ,the rules change. They all know we will leave someday. The Taliban and the “insurgents” live there. They have known war for generations, like us. But they live there and we will leave. Then they have to rebuild a society run by warlords, corrupt politicians and religious extremists. What is our payoff? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/173 "2010-08-03T18:30:56Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > [Durand Line - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durand_Line) Good luck sealing the border. It is 1600 miles of mountainous terrain. Pakistan and Afghanistan have fought wars over the border. They do not even agree on what the border is. Perhaps I was a bit ambitious with my idea about “sealing” the border. Obviously, we’re looking at an essentially intractable problem resulting from the colonial period. I don’t know if the Taliban would be willing to recognize the border (unlike Karzai) and officially split the Pashtun region if we turned Afghanistan over to them. The point tho is that if we receive from them verifiable assurances that they will not offer sanctuary to AQ, our “stated” mission is accomplished. There is no doubt, in my mind at least, that given the Taliban’s compliance with world opinion in eliminating poppy cultivation back in 2000, that in exchange for internationally recognized sovereignty and a legitimate basis for a solid GNP based on morphine, we could work something out with them regarding smuggling and harboring terrorists. A good deal all around except for oil companies, war profiteers and drug traffickers. Problem is, these assholes determine our policies. Gee, just imagine if the US had to legitimately compete with Russia, China and India for the development of an oil pipeline thru Afghanistan. Where would the profit lie in that? I’ll tell you. In the US Treasury. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/174 "2010-08-03T19:04:23Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > Gee, just imagine if the US had to legitimately compete with Russia, China and India for the development of an oil pipeline thru Afghanistan. The imaginary pipeline that only exists in your mind (such as it is)? That one? ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/175 "2010-08-03T19:22:03Z")
Missed edit. There is also the question of who will control development and profits from the “recently” discovered mineral deposits. There was time when eco-tourism (happy Afghans, safe cross-continent roads/hiking trails and all the dope you could do) did well in this strategically located and agriculturally blessed wasteland of abundance. I do believe that if pressed by the prospect of losing that trade, the Taliban would loosen up on just about everything. If a Hippy ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy. Fuck You All, one more time. **Uzi**? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/176 "2010-08-03T19:46:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They can not take money (your tax money) from us unless we offer it. Yeah, like we invented bribery. And **adhay** seems to think that the Russians, Chinese, and Indians compete ‘fairly’, too. Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/177 "2010-08-03T21:14:02Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@gonzomax](#): > > > > They can not take money (your tax money) from us unless we offer it. > > Yeah, like we invented bribery. > > And **adhay** seems to think that the Russians, Chinese, and Indians compete ‘fairly’, too. Unbelievable. Try to listen. The Taliban are the latest edition of Afghanistan’s historical resistance to colonialism. We’ve armed them and insist that they fight a war that neither of us can win. Pipeline or no pipeline, our war machine sucks dollars out of taxpayers’ pockets in our endless war on terror. That’s the game plan, the way we do business and the way we treat the world in the name of the American People. We can put the Taliban to better use than that but not if you have it your way. No, the corrupt govts of Russia, China and India (forget Pakistan) don’t play fair. WTF? they have the same problems we do. Satisfy the domestic need for cheap oil, don’t ask where it came from or how we got it. If the Taliban had the sole negotiating power with the extraction Industries of the various countries, we’d see some honest capitalism and a free market. That’s something the Corporate Kleptocracy will not abide. Hence, our present involvement. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/178 "2010-08-03T22:01:21Z")
> [@adhay](#): > > If the Taliban had the sole negotiating power with the extraction Industries of the various countries, we’d see some honest capitalism and a free market. They did at one time and used it to support terrorists rather than promote their citizen’s well being. ---
**Author:** ![adhay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecd19e/32.png) [@adhay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adhay)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/179 "2010-08-03T22:11:48Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > > [@adhay](#): > > > > If the Taliban had the sole negotiating power with the extraction Industries of the various countries, we’d see some honest capitalism and a free market. > > They did at one time and used it to support terrorists rather than promote their citizen’s well being. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812/180 "2010-08-03T22:57:13Z")
> [@](#): > > **adhay** > Try to listen. The Taliban are the latest edition of Afghanistan’s historical resistance to colonialism. Bollocks, if anything, the Taliban are the extention of Pakistans ‘imperial’ ambitions, since they were funded and in part created by them. Not to mention, the Talibans have only around 6% support of the local population, where as NATO has about 60%. > [@](#): > > There is no doubt, in my mind at least, that given the Taliban’s compliance with world opinion in eliminating poppy cultivation back in 2000, that in exchange for internationally recognized sovereignty and a legitimate basis for a solid GNP based on morphine, we could work something out with them regarding smuggling and harboring terrorists. A good deal all around except for oil companies, war profiteers and drug traffickers. Problem is, these assholes determine our policies. So you’re implying the following: Taliban = Noble warriors of the people Everything else in Afghanistan = Scumbags Right? > [@](#): > > We can put the Taliban to better use than that but not if you have it your way. Yeah, because that sentence implies we have any control over the Taliban. > [@](#): > > No, the corrupt govts of Russia, China and India (forget Pakistan) don’t play fair. WTF? they have the same problems we do. Satisfy the domestic need for cheap oil, don’t ask where it came from or how we got it. What’s the big deal of Indian influence in Afghanistan, it’s a democratic state, and Afghans are usually pro Indian anyway. So presently Adhay, considering the fact the Taliban have very little support, the Afghan Government has a lot of support, as well as NATO in defending that government, what’s the credible alternative which is morally right? I keep posing this question to you and I don’t hear any credible answers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-afghanistan-in-the-pit/546812.md?page=10)