# Let's debate pro-choice people vs. anti-abortion people **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2010, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421 "2010-05-14T13:30:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/41 "2010-05-17T09:40:49Z")
Adoption after birth really isn’t a realistic option for married women. The whole family knows she’s pregnant after she starts showing, and she had BETTER be able to produce either a baby or an infant corpse for the grandparents to coo or grieve over. She can’t just say “I’m not ready to be a mother/I don’t want kids so I/we gave it up for adoption” without a lot of drama ensuing. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/42 "2010-05-17T13:16:02Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My question is why you want to call one side what they desire to be called ‘pro-choice’ and for the other you chose a ‘pro-choice’ term of anti-abortion instead of what they desire to be called ‘pro-life’. At the very least you could chose a more fair term of ‘against the legal murder of your own child’ because that is how they view abortion. Because I’m a wordsmith and I hate the way the "pro-life’ groups have corrupted the language. They re anti-abortion! The pro-choice group is not pro-abortion. [Here](http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_38.asp) is an article about the use of “pro-life” words, from a website that calls itself “abortion facts.” That’s a GROSS misnomer. > [@Abortion Facts](#): > > Who does the procedure? Never call him/her a doctor. They don’t deserve the dignity that “Doctor” calls forth. Also, don’t use “surgeon.” Call them “abortionists.” Never deviate from that title. The word “abortionist” is one of condemnation, of criminality, of killing. That is the label they deserve. ---
**Author:** ![yorick73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/b5a626/32.png) [@yorick73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yorick73)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/43 "2010-05-17T15:34:12Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Adoption after birth really isn’t a realistic option for married women. The whole family knows she’s pregnant after she starts showing, and she had BETTER be able to produce either a baby or an infant corpse for the grandparents to coo or grieve over. She can’t just say “I’m not ready to be a mother/I don’t want kids so I/we gave it up for adoption” without a lot of drama ensuing. So married people never give up a child for adoption because of pressure from the family?!? Even if this were the case it would not make any difference. You can’t argue that women are forced to keep kids due to peer pressure from the family. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/44 "2010-05-17T15:39:44Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Because I’m a wordsmith and I hate the way the "pro-life’ groups have corrupted the language. They re anti-abortion! The pro-choice group is not pro-abortion. They’re not pro-choice either – not in a general sense. Most of them don’t favor the choice to steal, or rape, or pillage. Rather, they’re only “pro-this-very-specific-choice.” “But it’s understood!” one might object. “People understand that when we talk about choice, we don’t mean choice in general. We only mean choice with regard to abortion.” Sorry, but that’s rather poor wordsmithing. If one is going to complain that the term “pro-life” isn’t linguistically precise, then the same objection should be leveled against the term “pro-choice.” ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/45 "2010-05-17T16:32:27Z")
They are pro-choice when it comes to legal activities. Even if they hate smoking because it kills people, they don’t bomb places that sell tobacco. The anti-abortion crowd thnks a woman shold be able to go through pregnancy and childbirth, hand the baby over to a couple of strangers, and go on with her life like nothing happened. That is extraordinarily cruel. One of the stupidest things I ever heard anyone say was “All women rgret having an abortion. No woman regrets giving a child up for adoption.” I wonder if the woman whose babies are killed ny their adoptive parents agree with that. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/46 "2010-05-17T17:21:06Z")
Technically, the most correct terms would be anti-abortion or anti-abortion-rights vs. pro-abortion-rights. Pro-choice vs anti-choice/anti-abortion and pro-abortion vs pro-life are both loaded on one side or the other. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/47 "2010-05-17T17:46:42Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > They are pro-choice when it comes to legal activities. Even if they hate smoking because it kills people, they don’t bomb places that sell tobacco. And yet they don’t call themselves “pro-legal-choice,” do they? So much for wordsmithing. Besides, should we honestly believe that they completely endorse the choice of any activity, so long as it’s legal? Should we believe that pro-choicers never try to change laws on the grounds that they’re unjust? Or that they would have supported slavery, back during the days when slavery was legal? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/48 "2010-05-17T22:24:28Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > They are pro-choice when it comes to legal activities. Even if they hate smoking because it kills people, they don’t bomb places that sell tobacco. > > The anti-abortion crowd thnks a woman shold be able to go through pregnancy and childbirth, hand the baby over to a couple of strangers, and go on with her life like nothing happened. That is extraordinarily cruel. > > One of the stupidest things I ever heard anyone say was “All women rgret having an abortion. No woman regrets giving a child up for adoption.” I wonder if the woman whose babies are killed ny their adoptive parents agree with that. I know many adopted children don’t agree with that sentiment either. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/49 "2010-05-17T22:29:43Z")
> [@Laudenum](#): > > Last point first: > It was my understanding that there was a large and active movement in the US against the death penalty - obviously a group dedicated to stopping abortion would not campaign on the death penalty too, but I would be surprised if there wasn’t a crossover between both campaigns. Also, assuming that they treat all lives equally, the sheer number of people killed by abortion far outweighs the number killed by the state. > > First point second: > Firstly, I said “ **most of that** period without signicant discomfort”, referring of course to the term of the pregnancy. I knew one girl who was seven months pregnant before she noticed (that was a most unusual and unpleasent case though). > Secondly, your point about women who were gang-raped applies to only a fraction of the women who get abortions - I can understand that having their rapist’s child would be most unpleasent for women, but that doesn’t apply to the vast bulk of abortions. > As for a person so into “population control and environmental protection” who would see having a child as murder - that’s just sad. In general. No kid needed. Actually, the point of mentioning that gang-rape was the cause of the unwanted pregnancies was to explain that those women considered being denied abortions far, far worse being held as sex slaves and repeatedly raped. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/50 "2010-05-17T22:37:37Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Adoption after birth really isn’t a realistic option for married women. The whole family knows she’s pregnant after she starts showing, and she had BETTER be able to produce either a baby or an infant corpse for the grandparents to coo or grieve over. She can’t just say “I’m not ready to be a mother/I don’t want kids so I/we gave it up for adoption” without a lot of drama ensuing. There are also a spate of health problems that can come along with being pregnant, and can last long after birth, whether you’ve kept the child or not. Post-partum depression doesn’t go away because you’ve given the child up for adoption. And issues like mental illness, depression, eating disorders, chronic back pain, substance abuse, insulin-dependent diabetes, HIV, chronic urinary tract infections, even being addicted to cigarettes – the things a woman might be willing to weigh against a baby she really wants (not always opting to have a child at all) – not so hot when you’re carrying a pregnancy against your will. ETA I’ve said this before, but I like ‘pro-reproductive rights’ because it acknowledges that there’s way more to the issue than whether or not a baby pops out of a woman’s womb. But it’s a mouthful. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/51 "2010-05-17T22:52:44Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > So why aren’t the “pro-abortion” people killing people in the adoption business and buring down orphanages? Why don’t anti-abortion protestors go to Washington and have the law changed instead of killing doctors and burning down clinics? OK to answer your question - it is intentionally designed that way, the pro-anti whatever you want to call it is set up in opposition to each other, to cause conflict among humans, spread hate and death and to divert attention to the real cause of our battle for humans achieving true Love for each other. While this battle goes on, a servant of the Lord will be sent only in Love to the woman and the soul of the baby, if the woman doesn’t see the path of Love, the baby generally does and will go with the Lord. The baby’s development (spiritual evolution) will be delayed, but will eventually happen. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/52 "2010-05-17T22:58:29Z")
And, of course, paid maternity leave is still not a law in the US (or maternity leave at all depending on the job), so this idea that you can sign off nine months of your life and return to normal is a bit of a pipe dream, even if there are no complications. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/53 "2010-05-17T23:12:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > OK to answer your question - it is intentionally designed that way, the pro-anti whatever you want to call it is set up in opposition to each other, to cause conflict among humans, spread hate and death and to divert attention to the real cause of our battle for humans achieving true Love for each other. > > While this battle goes on, a servant of the Lord will be sent only in Love to the woman and the soul of the baby, if the woman doesn’t see the path of Love, the baby generally does and will go with the Lord. The baby’s development (spiritual evolution) will be delayed, but will eventually happen. You write excellent God fanfic. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/54 "2010-05-17T23:37:55Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You write excellent God fanfic. Eh, the Servant of the Lord’s a Mary Sue. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/55 "2010-05-18T03:00:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m kind of curious what, if anything, represents the analogous violence on the pro-choice side. Uh…condoning, if not outright participating in, the ending of over a million lives a year? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/56 "2010-05-18T03:18:40Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Uh…condoning, if not outright participating in, the ending of over a million lives a year? Except those aren’t people. And not even the “pro-lifers” claim that the doctors and others they kill aren’t people. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/57 "2010-05-18T03:30:38Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Uh…condoning, if not outright participating in, the ending of over a million lives a year? And the effect of this is what, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/58 "2010-05-18T03:39:37Z")
[Here’s a nice case for this thread](http://www.feministing.com/archives/021206.html). Somewhat pro-choice nun who supported abortion for a critically ill patient? “Automatically excommunicated” by, one assumes, a pro-life Bishop. Perhaps she could have claimed the doctor was simply molesting the woman… > [@](#): > > A letter sent Monday from Catholic Healthcare West, signed by Sister Judith Carle, board chairwoman, and President and CEO Lloyd Dean, asks Olmsted to provide further clarification about the directives. Agreeing that in a healthy mother, pregnancy is “not a pathology,” it says this case was different. The pregnancy, the letter says, carried a nearly certain risk of death for the mother. > > “If there had been a way to save the pregnancy and still prevent the death of the mother, we would have done it,” the letter says. “We are convinced there was not.” > > James J. Walter, professor of bioethics at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, a Catholic university, said that is a tough argument to make. He said a pregnancy may be terminated only in limited, indirect circumstances, such as uterine cancer, in which the cancer treatment takes the life of the fetus. > > Catholic teaching, he said, is that a pregnancy cannot be terminated as a means to an end of saving the life of a mother who is suffering from a different condition. > > Asked if the church position prefers the mother and child to die, rather than sparing the life of one of them, Walters said the hope is that both would survive. > > Read more: [http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/15/20100515phoenix-catholic-nun-abortion.html#ixzz0oFUDyTzy](http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/05/15/20100515phoenix-catholic-nun-abortion.html#ixzz0oFUDyTzy) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421/59 "2010-05-18T13:21:53Z")
An example of the “pro-life” crew sticking their noses where they don’t belong is the case of [Nancy Klein](http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x3392433) Everyone involved in the cast–her doctors, her husband, her parents–agreed an abortion would help her recover frm her coma. But two pro-lifers, total strangers to everyone, tried to repreent Ms. Klein and the fetus, saying they knew she would want her “baby” to live. Absolute strangers. And all the courts said, in effect, fuck you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-pro-choice-people-vs-anti-abortion-people/539421.md?page=2)