# Let's debate the rules of grammar and usage **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2006, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461 "2006-03-15T15:57:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/41 "2006-03-18T21:31:08Z")
> [@Tevildo](#): > > I assume you meant to say “incorrect”. 🙂 Sorry, you’re right. I mean to say that there are indeed certain “rules.” …I think… ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/42 "2006-03-19T21:31:45Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > Well, yes, but usually members of the same speech community find ways to get their ideas across, and ways to tell each other when something is unclear or ambiguous, in order to communicate what they want to say. (And _got_ meaning _have_ is a truncation of _have got_, which is perfectly acceptable in British English.) Certainly members of any speech community are able to communicate with the language that they use. Commuinication is a necessity of human existence, so no social group is going to last very long if it can’t use speech to move a thought from one person’s mind to another. I wonder, however, if all speech communities are created equal. I would state that if one dialect allows the users to communicate with greater breadth, depth, clarity and precision than another dialect, then the first dialect is superior to the second. By this standard, many of the alternate dialects that deviate from correct English are inferior. As an example, consider this sentence which I recently overheard: “When we got to the concert ground, there was all kinds of shit all over the place.” If the speaker were using correct English, that sentence would have one and only one meaning, albeit a fairly unlikely meaning: when we arrived at the concert ground, it was covered in feces. However, today’s youth have widely adopted a variation of English in which the word “shit” can substitute for any noun. Consequently, the original sentence has a virtually infinite number of possible meanings. What covered the concert ground? Garbage? Equipment? Magnesium? Clarity and precision have suffered. The speaker failed to communicate, since his listeners still don’t know what covered the concert ground. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/43 "2006-03-19T21:33:43Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > The speaker failed to communicate, since his listeners still don’t know what covered the concert ground. Do they care? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/44 "2006-03-19T22:21:48Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > That’s one way that words like “dis” come into the language. You might say that other words serve the “same purpose;” but I say they result because English has such a large variety of speech communities. [_I.e_., it’s one thing to insult someone; but it’s quite another to “_dis_” someone.] I think I agree with you, but I disagree with your particular example. I was under the impression that “dissing” is exactly the same as – and in fact merely an abbreviation for – “disrespecting” someone. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/45 "2006-03-19T22:24:34Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Do they care? Probably not, but I care. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/46 "2006-03-19T22:32:24Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Do they care? I think that’s a fair question. “What kind ’ ’ do you mean, exactly?” “Garbarge, or course, idiot. What else do you expect to find on the field after a concert?” Still, besides computer languages, I think just about every language has words that certain people use like that. They say “_shit_” because it doesn’t really matter what the stuff was. That doesn’t mean they won’t be able to use more precise terms when they feel it’s necessary. > [@ITR champion](#): > > I wonder, however, if all speech communities are created equal. I would state that if one dialect allows the users to communicate with greater breadth, depth, clarity and precision than another dialect, then the first dialect is superior to the second. By this standard, many of the alternate dialects that deviate from correct English are inferior. Well, it’s an interesting speculation, but it seems a little subjective to me. If someone on TV is announced as a “pundit,” what exactly does that mean? There’s a lot of business English that people think has “greater breadth, depth, etc.” that’s just as vague. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/47 "2006-03-20T12:22:18Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > Certainly members of any speech community are able to communicate with the language that they use. Commuinication is a necessity of human existence, so no social group is going to last very long if it can’t use speech to move a thought from one person’s mind to another. > > I wonder, however, if all speech communities are created equal. I would state that if one dialect allows the users to communicate with greater breadth, depth, clarity and precision than another dialect, then the first dialect is superior to the second. By this standard, many of the alternate dialects that deviate from correct English are inferior. As an example, consider this sentence which I recently overheard: > > “When we got to the concert ground, there was all kinds of shit all over the place.” > > If the speaker were using correct English, that sentence would have one and only one meaning, albeit a fairly unlikely meaning: when we arrived at the concert ground, it was covered in feces. > > However, today’s youth have widely adopted a variation of English in which the word “shit” can substitute for any noun. Consequently, the original sentence has a virtually infinite number of possible meanings. What covered the concert ground? Garbage? Equipment? Magnesium? Clarity and precision have suffered. The speaker failed to communicate, since his listeners still don’t know what covered the concert ground. That’s because you’re trying to make the sentence mean something it doesn’t. A language or dialect that cannot express ambiguity seems to me to be inferior to one that can. Suppose you had heard the sentence in so-called correct English: “When we got to the concert ground, there all sorts of activities everywhere.” You don’t know what sort of activities there were, but you wouldn’t say that the language is inferior to one that said, “When we got to the concert ground, it was ankle deep in steamy turds.” ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/48 "2006-03-20T13:42:07Z")
> [@ITR champion](#): > > “When we got to the concert ground, there was all kinds of shit all over the place.” > > If the speaker were using correct English, that sentence would have one and only one meaning, albeit a fairly unlikely meaning: when we arrived at the concert ground, it was covered in feces. > > However, today’s youth have widely adopted a variation of English in which the word “shit” can substitute for any noun. Sorry, but this is a normal process in all human languages. “Shit” is a metaphor here, and natural languages are full of metaphors. If they had said: “When we got to the concert ground, there were all kinds of undesirable things all over the place.” the meaning would be basically the same, and no more precise, even if in more formal English, so what would be gained? ---
**Author:** ![blueslipper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@blueslipper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blueslipper)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/49 "2006-03-20T19:44:25Z")
“When we got to the concert ground, there was all kinds of shit all over the place.” If the speaker were using correct English, that sentence would have one and only one meaning, albeit a fairly unlikely meaning: when we arrived at the concert ground, it was covered in feces. A mistake many people make is saying that a sentence can have one meaning without context. There is no way that sentence has one and only one meaning with no context given. Who is “we”? What concert ground? What do you mean by shit? What place? The context would also include who the speakers were and what situation they were talking. Maybe the speaker was a hippie. Maybe the speaker was a zoo-keeper going to find animals that escaped from the zoo. This sentence does not have one and only one meaning. It all depends on context. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/50 "2006-03-20T21:48:22Z")
> [@blueslipper](#): > > A mistake many people make is saying that a sentence can have one meaning without context. There is no way that sentence has one and only one meaning with no context given. I agree, but isn’t that a different issue? Weren’t we assuming that the people talking in this example pretty much knew the context? More to the point, even when the context is clear between two speakers, in most languages/dialects an utterance–I would wager–can still carry more than one “meaning,” or “interpretation,” or “denotation.” Even in “superior” ones. > [@blueslipper](#): > > It all depends on context. Yes, context is paramount. I just don’t think that it can always specify meaning exactly. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461/51 "2006-03-20T21:54:47Z")
> [@Ellis Dee](#): > > I think I agree with you, but I disagree with your particular example. I was under the impression that “dissing” is exactly the same as – and in fact merely an abbreviation for – “disrespecting” someone. Yes and no. It derives (obviously) from the abbreviation, but different speech communities don’t just do this to save time, IMHO. I think there’s a difference between “dis” and “disrespect.” The former is more aggressive and deliberate–kind of like a cross between “disrespect” and “insult.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-the-rules-of-grammar-and-usage/348461.md?page=2)