# Let's Debate This Progress Report Of Iraq. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161 "2003-12-05T16:03:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Chicago\_Faucet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chicago_faucet/32/13910_2.png) [@Chicago\_Faucet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicago_Faucet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/1 "2003-12-05T16:03:58Z")
The following is some Glurge that I have received in my inbox twice in the past two days from different senders. I say “Glurge”, because that seems to be the common monicker for these types of texts that circulate via email, no matter what the content of the email is. My feelings of the Iraq war aside, I am posting an abbreviated version of what I have received in the email. There is a definite point where the facts stop and the subjections begin. At the end of this email, the ratings hungry media is blamed for not publishings these progresses in Iraq thus far. Needless to say, inspite of or because of this allegation, I am having a hard time gathering any cites together to prove any of these progresses. Can anyone here prove or disprove any of these? It is kind of long, so I apologize. But any help in resolving these statements would be appreciated: > [@](#): > > Thought you may all like this… > > Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1… > > … the first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on > active duty. > > … over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens. > > … nearly all of Iraq’s 400 courts are functioning. > > … the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent. > > … on Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts-exceeding > the > prewar average. > > … all 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, > as are nearly all primary and secondary schools. > > … by October 1, Coalition forces had rehab-ed over 1,500 schools - 500 > more than scheduled. > > … teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries. > > … all 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open. > > … doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under > Saddam. > > … pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 > tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons. > > … the Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses > to Iraq’s children. > > … a Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq’s > 27,000 > kilometers of weed-choked canals which now irrigate tens of thousands of > farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and > women. > > … we have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and > over two-thirds of the potable water production. > > … there are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect 50,000 > by year-end. > > … the wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes > to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and > towns. > > … 95 percent of all prewar bank customers have service and first-time > customers are opening accounts daily. > > … Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses. > > … the central bank is fully independent. > > … Iraq has one of the worlds most growth-oriented investment and banking > laws. > > … Iraq has a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years. > > … satellite TV dishes are legal. > > … foreign journalists aren’t on 10-day visas paying mandatory and > extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for minders and other > government spies. > > … there is no Ministry of Information. > > … there are more than 170 newspapers. > > … you can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner. > > … foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go. > > … a nation that had not one single element - legislative, judicial or > executive - of a representative government, now does. > > … in Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. > Baghdad’s first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the > city council elected its new chairman. > > … today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional > organizations are electing their leaders all over the country. > > … 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in > Iraq’s history, run the day-to-day business of government. > > … the Iraqi government regularly participates in international events. > Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen > international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the > Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference > Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is > reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world. > > … Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren’t. > > … for the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites > celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam. > > … the Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large > and small, as part of a strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/2 "2003-12-05T16:05:56Z")
Of course there’s a Ministry of Information! It’s called the “Defense Department”. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/3 "2003-12-05T16:31:04Z")
As far as I know, every statistic you posted is true. All the ones I’ve followed up on have borne out, anyway. Most of that information comes straight from the Civilian Provisional Authority. Of course it’s not the complete picture. You can make any place look good if you selectively choose which facts to report. There’s plenty of bad stuff going on in Iraq, and the situation there is still pretty dicey. However, the above criticism applies to the anti-war crowd as well. By never reporting the good stuff, they make things seem much worse than they are. So bulletins like the above are important for getting a balanced picture of what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/4 "2003-12-05T16:36:36Z")
> [@](#): > > … 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq’s history, run the day-to-day business of government. Those 25 ministers were _appointed_ by the [Coalition Provisional Authority](http://www.cpa-iraq.org/government/governing_council.html), specifically that famous Iraqi [L. Paul Bremer](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,88196,00.html). Perhaps [this is the sort of representative government](http://www.marshcrisisacademy.com/content/40_thought_leadership/!_Corporate_Governance.asp) that glurge piece is talking about. > [@](#): > > … a nation that had not one single element - legislative, judicial or executive - of a representative government, now does. Amazing, considering that no general elections are scheduled for at least [two years](http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s999057.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Chicago\_Faucet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chicago_faucet/32/13910_2.png) [@Chicago\_Faucet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chicago_Faucet)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/5 "2003-12-05T16:37:31Z")
“Civilian Provisional Authority”? Is there an online resource for that? Let me Google that… The following link seems to be a pretty good one: [http://www.iraqrevenuewatch.org/documents/dfi.shtml](http://www.iraqrevenuewatch.org/documents/dfi.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/6 "2003-12-05T16:55:13Z")
It’s way too early to declare Iraq operation a success. Or a failure. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/7 "2003-12-05T16:58:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chicago Faucet \* > \*\*“Civilian Provisional Authority”? Is there an online resource for that? > > Let me Google that… > > The following link seems to be a pretty good one: > > [http://www.iraqrevenuewatch.org/documents/dfi.shtml](http://www.iraqrevenuewatch.org/documents/dfi.shtml) \*\* [**C** (oalition) **P** (rovisional) **A** (uthority) Official Documents](http://cpa-iraq.org/regulations/index.html) [http://cpa-iraq.org/](http://cpa-iraq.org/) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/8 "2003-12-05T17:12:47Z")
The people who need convincing are the Iraqis, not the e-glurge readers. The battlefield is their hearts and minds. Even if every word is true, and nothing else is left unsaid, it’s still saying only what the writer thinks the Iraqis _ought_ to think, based on his/her own cultural frame of reference. It’s irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/9 "2003-12-05T17:17:17Z")
At the risk of being overly dramatic, this operation was a failure before it began. What else was possible when the stated justifications for it were lies? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/10 "2003-12-05T17:46:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*The people who need convincing are the Iraqis, not the e-glurge readers. The battlefield is their hearts and minds. Even if every word is true, and nothing else is left unsaid, it’s still saying only what the writer thinks the Iraqis _ought_ to think, based on his/her own cultural frame of reference. It’s irrelevant. \*\* I agree with most of what you say here, **Elvis** , although I do wish the mainstream news media would report a standard set of progress indicators to let us know if things, overall, are improving or not. Instead, we get mostly snipets of info and are left to try to piece together a wholistic view ourselves. A daunting task, at best. I’ve tried several times over the last month or so to google up some polling info on what the Iraqi people themselves think. The best I could come up with is [this Zogby poll](http://zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=6164), that was reported in October, although I’m uncertain when the poll was actually taken. Unfortunately, the question “Is Iraq a better to place to live now than it was under Saddam Hussein” was not asked. Does anyone have a better cite with polling results of the Iraqis themselves? ---
**Author:** ![ammo52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ammo52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ammo52)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/11 "2003-12-05T17:58:43Z")
A wise observer would wait a while more before assessing “success” or “failure.” Let’s see what Iraq looks like, say, five years… ten years down the road. We pretty much know what it would have looked like with Saddam in charge, and can reasonably envision the conditions in Iraq had power passed on to one of his charming sons as well. Just a crazy hunch, but I’m thinking that long-term, Iraq is going to be left in much better shape than we found it in. It’s going to take the Iraqis some time to even “take their country back”, and I imagine that process is as much a mental one as it is physical. Saddam had basically “become” Iraq, highjacking an entire country in the process. I look forward to seeing what the Iraqis can do with their country once it’s in the hands of the people rather than the death-grip of a selfish tyrant. And I just hope that after we leave, it doesn’t slide right back into the trap of becoming a dictatorship all over again, just because it’s familiar ground. If anything, I think I’d like to hear more about what specific steps are being taken to help ease the Iraqis through the transition from dictatorship to… well, I hesitate to call it “democracy”, but at least a more representational form of government. Iraq always seemed to be one of the more secular countries in the Middle East-- and I think that if they can continue to resist handing the country over to the imams and mullahs and truly join the community of nations, they could be capable of doing some great things. If nothing else, they’re being given (or will be, soon) the chance to try. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/12 "2003-12-05T18:05:45Z")
I expect that these two stats are innaccurate and contradictory: \*… we have restored over three-quarters of prewar telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production. … there are 4,900 full-service telephone connections. We expect 50,000 by year-end.\* This means that it will go from 99.98% of Iraqis being w/o phones, (4900 w/phone), to 99.8% being w/o phones, (50,000 w/phones). If 4900 = 3/4 of prewar telephone services then prewar service level must’ve been only 6500 some odd phones in a country of 24mil. If these numbers are accurate, (which I doubt), this’s more evidence that pre-war levels in Iraq under Saddam and sanctions sucked really, really, hard. Children were dying and the people were suffering grievously. Reaching pre-war levels of anything in Iraq is hardly anything to brag about. ---
**Author:** ![ammo52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ammo52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ammo52)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/13 "2003-12-05T18:17:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\* Reaching pre-war levels of anything in Iraq is hardly anything to brag about. \*\* Precisely correct. It promises to be the POST-war levels that will be worth bragging about. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/14 "2003-12-05T18:21:01Z")
**John** , I think that’s probably about as good a poll as one can reasonably expect get right now. After all, if that section of the above glurge is to be believed, there were fewer than five thousand working telephones in the country when the e-mail was written. (Note to self: I’ll bet that when that first telephone survey is conducted it’s going to consist primarily of Iraqis who are damned happy to have telephones! I can’t think of a better way to massage a “Dewey Defeats Truman” sort of result than that.) Those poll results you list are not very encouraging, in some respects. For example: > [@](#): > > Only two in five (39%) said that “democracy can work in Iraq,” while a majority (51%) agreed that “democracy is a Western way of doing things and will not work here.” Shiites — who suffered the most under Hussein and who make up the majority in Iraq — are more evenly split about democracy (45%-46%), while Sunnis are far less favorable. > > Asked about the kind of government that would be best for Iraq, half of all respondents (49%) said they preferred “a democracy with elected representatives guided by Sharia (Islamic law).” Twenty-four percent prefer an “Islamic state ruled by clerics based on Sharia.” Only one in five (21%) preferred a “secular democracy with elected representatives.” Back to the glurge. The power output figures seem to square well with those that were announced by the Department of Commerce in early October (.pdf document): [http://www.export.gov/iraq/pdf/cpa\_milestones\_120303.pdf](http://www.export.gov/iraq/pdf/cpa_milestones_120303.pdf) And another of the figures in the glurge appears to have been lifted from that document-- the one about teacher salaries. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/15 "2003-12-05T19:25:56Z")
So, is it me, or is the message in the OP simply a capsule summary of the reports coming out of the White House? Seems like there’s nothing new here, just a one-stop shop for all your pro-war spin needs. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/16 "2003-12-05T19:40:52Z")
A couple of problems I see: Power generation reached pre-war levels on Oct. 12 but have significantly slipped since. See [http://uggabugga.blogspot.com/2003\_11\_09\_uggabugga\_archive.html#106884349754964014](http://uggabugga.blogspot.com/2003_11_09_uggabugga_archive.html#106884349754964014) I also remember reading a report that a number of the schools listed as “renovated” were still in pretty poor shape, but darned if I can find the link now. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/17 "2003-12-05T19:46:07Z")
All I have to say is, if all that stuff is true, why the hell are we still over there?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/18 "2003-12-05T19:52:56Z")
Well if the US fell into decadence and chaos… and then Canada with France invaded the US in order to restor “order”. Would nice numbers of schools and eletricity make you happy ? Hardly I would imagine. Now if some muslim country invaded the US… sorry… not invaded… hhmm… “enforced” UN resolutions would Americans be happy about it ? Even if your new masters managed to have no deficit and to create new jobs ? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/19 "2003-12-05T19:56:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by duality72 \* > \*\*A couple of problems I see: > > Power generation reached pre-war levels on Oct. 12 but have significantly slipped since. See [http://uggabugga.blogspot.com/2003\_11\_09\_uggabugga\_archive.html#106884349754964014](http://uggabugga.blogspot.com/2003_11_09_uggabugga_archive.html#106884349754964014) > > I also remember reading a report that a number of the schools listed as “renovated” were still in pretty poor shape, but darned if I can find the link now. \*\* Bush did this trick w/ oil production as well. He came out and said that oil production levels had reached 2 mil bpd. It had, of course, but only for one day. It went back down immediately afterward. It’s a true statement that’s not honest. It’s a not-lie. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161/20 "2003-12-05T20:19:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\* > Does anyone have a better cite with polling results of the Iraqis themselves? > \*\* Here’s one of Baghdadis: [http://www.spectator.co.uk/pdfs/iraqi\_poll.pdf](http://www.spectator.co.uk/pdfs/iraqi_poll.pdf) > [@](#): > > **If you had to choose, would you rather live under Saddam or the Americans?** > > prefer Saddam 09% > no preference 47% > prefer Americans 29% > not stated 15% > **Comparing your life today with one year ago, is it better or worse?** > > total better 32% > total worse 47% Here’s a thread about some poll numbers. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213254](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=213254) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-this-progress-report-of-iraq/217161.md?page=2)