# Let's debate vouchers.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [November 8, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578 "2004-11-08T03:17:19Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/1 "2004-11-08T03:17:19Z")
Let me preface this: I am 9 months from becoming a public educator. Therefore, I am more than a little biased.
I continue to read about people supporting school vouchers. I’ve read the arguments, including the [CATO foundation report.](http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-025es.html) However, I’m still not buying it.
As I see it, vouchers still leave behind the students in the worst schools. The averages thrown around as to what the average voucher would be range from $2300 to $3000. CATO gives a figure of $3116 for the average price of a private education in America. If we use the $3000 figure, that leaves only $116 to be covered by the family of the student in question. Certainly, this sounds reasonable to me, and I couldn’t come up with an argument against this.
Unfortunately for the CATO people, I decided to look up what private high school education costs where I grew up. Looking at the suburban Detroit area, I found that a private high school education costs considerably more than $3116. Here is what I came up with:
Notre Dame Prep (Pontiac): [$7750](http://www.ndprep.pvt.k12.mi.us/)
Notre Dame Harper Woods (Harper Woods): [$5950](http://www.notredame-hw.com/academics/financialaid.shtml)
Bishop Foley (Madison Heights): [$7350](http://www.bishopfoley.org/admission/tuition.html)
Brother Rice (Birmingham): [$7990](http://www.brrice.edu/admissions_tuition.htm)
Cranbrook (Bloomfield Hills): [$20940 commuter, $29290 boarding](http://schools.cranbrook.edu/admission/affording/)
Excluding Cranbrook, this becomes an average of $7260. Including Cranbrook as a commuter school, it goes way up to $9996.
Take away the $3000 voucher, the families are left to pay $4260 or $6996. This is a far cry from $116. So, how does the voucher help?
This is just looking at cost to the family. What happens when we look at what teachers are paid? I know, some of you will say “Market Values!” and tell me to get a real job. I don’t buy that argument either, and really think that I’m worth (at least) $30000 per year.
So, here in Michigan, I can make about $31000 per year as a public school teacher. The private school teachers I know make about 2/3 of that. If I worked full time at Target, I would make more than they do. Unfortunately, I can’t find any cites regarding the pay of private school teachers in Michigan. [Salary.com](http://Salary.com) does not specify. Anecdotally, Cranbrook only pays its teachers about $18000 per year to start off. A friend at DeLaSalle High School (Warren, no website available) makes between $20000 amd $23000. A friend in my current area (Kalamazoo, the other side of the state) makes $23000, but is paid as a second year teacher because he, like me, has taught at the local University (as undergrads, so we can’t go back to that).
So, let me reiterate (and more clearly state) my questions:
How do vouchers help students in the worst schools, such as Detroit Public Schools?
Why should we expect these schools to keep up their academic success if they
a) infuse more students and,
b) still pay the teachers utter shit?
\*This is my first attempt at a serious GD thread. I never realized how much work goes into this!
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### Author:  [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/2 "2004-11-08T03:23:20Z")
Vouchers aren’t geared towards suburban students suburban schools generally aren’t failing. Vouchers are geared at poor city families in which the public schools are failing miserably. How about looking up the cost of private schools in the inner city of Detroit. If those are a good deal above 3000 then you would have a point.
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### Author:  [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/3 "2004-11-08T03:26:39Z")
But I do have a point. These schools are the best. They are all very, very close to Detroit, with the exception of Notre Dame Prep in Pontiac. The argument for vouchers is that the schools are better, and I’ve provided an example of not just better, but the best in the area.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/4 "2004-11-08T03:33:20Z")
Here’s the problem with comparing to current private-school costs:
Because public schools provide free schooling to the lower and middle classes, private schools have tended to cater to the higher income brackets that want superlative education. As such, their prices aren’t necessarily indicative of what prices would be if vouchers created a need for private education for the masses.
With widespread vouchers, You might see things like chain schools that use quantities of scale in preparing lesson plans, buying materials, etc.
In short, I think your methodology is suspect. CATO quotes the Dept. of Education to show that the average cost for elementary school educations is about $2500. Your counter is that exclusive, Ivy-league prep high schools cost a lot more. That’s like saying that a $15,000 car voucher wouldn’t allow people to buy cars, because a Mercedes is $45,000.
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### Author:  [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/5 "2004-11-08T03:34:41Z")
Furthermore, none of the “private” schools in Detroit have websites. Those that I looked at on [addresses.com](http://schools.addresses.com/schools_search_by_city/Detroit/MI/15.html) include schools that are still part of the Detroit Public Schools system (i.e. Cass Tech and Boykin).
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### Author:  [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/6 "2004-11-08T03:39:14Z")
> [@wmulax93](#):
>
> But I do have a point. These schools are the best. They are all very, very close to Detroit, with the exception of Notre Dame Prep in Pontiac. The argument for vouchers is that the schools are better, and I’ve provided an example of not just better, but the best in the area.
No you don’t have a point vouchers aren’t meant to allow students to go to the best schools. They are to allow poor students to get access to a decent education becuase their public school is completely failed. If you come back with data showing that the private schools that vouchers are geared towards cannot be paid for with the voucher then you would have a point.
To use an analogy you are claiming food stamps won’t work becuase they don’t provide enough money for lobster. If you show that you can’t afford bread with food stamps then you have a legitimate point.
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### Author:  [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/7 "2004-11-08T03:43:57Z")
Perhaps someone who has access to actual inner-city private school cost information might want to share that, since the OP started us off with an inappropriate basis for comparison.
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### Author:  [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/8 "2004-11-08T03:45:41Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#):
>
> With widespread vouchers, You might see things like chain schools that use quantities of scale in preparing lesson plans, buying materials, etc.
Doesn’t the idea of “chain schools” frighten anyone else? WalMart is a huge proponent of private education, and the thought of any child receiving a WalMart education scares the shit out of me. It would create an unnatural bias towards consumerism in the materials being taught.
> [@](#):
>
> In short, I think your methodology is suspect. CATO quotes the Dept. of Education to show that the average cost for elementary school educations is about $2500. Your counter is that exclusive, Ivy-league prep high schools cost a lot more. That’s like saying that a $15,000 car voucher wouldn’t allow people to buy cars, because a Mercedes is $45,000.
I can see your point here. As I’ve said, though, this is what I have to work with. Michigan is very, very short on charter schools right now. Actually, I don’t think we have any. We do have academies in Detroit, but they are part of DPS (like I said a couple of posts ago). Nothing like that exists in Kalamazoo, just an “Alternative” school for kids who get kicked out of K-Central or Loy Norrix High School.
Since I didn’t include this earlier, I have my own solution. From the research that I’ve done, I’ve found that the School-within-a-school system works rather well. I don’t have any of my links any more, but I would gladly email my paper to anyone who wants it. My email is my username at yahoo dot com. A brief synopsis: We add more teachers to current schools, but break the current schools into smaller schools contained in one building. These academies are more focused than a general school, and have smaller class sizes (hence more teachers).
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/9 "2004-11-08T03:46:39Z")
You list the tuition for the schools in the nicer areas,(BISHOP FOLEY RULES! GO VENTURES! WOOOHOOOO!!!), but what about tuition for Deporres or Redeemer, in Detroit? Though I suspect they won’t be _much_ less…
But it’s not the parents with kids at Troy-Athens or Sterling that are freaked out about their kids, it’s the parents with kids in Cooley or Mumford that desperantly want another option, even if it isn’t 100% tuition coverage at a private school. (3000 bucks can certainly ease the tuition burden for poorer families, no?)
As long as the system in certain areas continues to fail the kids (or at least those kids who try), I whole-heartedly support giving their parents flexibility in dealing with the problem. And given the fucked-up management of Detroit schools, things aren’t going to be getting better anytime soon, so the decent thing to do is give those parent who care a pass out of the system.
Besides, per [DetNews](http://www.detnews.com/2004/schools/0409/07/c03-257643.htm) we are spending more like $7,300+ per student, so the voucher could be quite a chunk larger.
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/10 "2004-11-08T03:47:33Z")
Excellent premise.
Also seeking entry into the public education field, I believe that all students, regardless of income and background, should be given the same quality education - you shouldn’t be able to buy your way through life.
We have such a strong “affirmative action” movement and counter-movement here in California. I regard the affirmative action rhetoric as pointless; it does not solve the root of the problem. The root of the problem is that the schools that most of the minority students have to go to are in horrible condition. They are dilapidated in many cases, usually have the worst teachers, worse extra-curricular activities and are in general an incredibly negative environment for learning, and thus for getting into decent universities. The best way to see equality in higher education is to bring quality to lower education.
My high school was barely outside of the forsaken LA Public School District, and I thank the gods (even Allah). Being a kind of middle ground between Compton and Pasadena, we got some of the privileges of a quality school system. Honors courses, student groups, good teachers…
But frankly, most of the schools on the “other side of the track” simply lack the funding. While some grade schools get 75 brand new Macs so the kiddies can play educational games on them, there are high schools that are in such poor condition that it is no wonder the students have no motivation.
I’d much rather tax that money the rich would spend on vouchers and bring those schools up to standards. Give them more vocational skills, more extracurricular work/community opportunities, feed them into community colleges and give them a shot at getting into a decent 4-year university and getting a degree.
And to hell with the private schools.
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/11 "2004-11-08T03:50:04Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> But it’s not the parents with kids at Troy-Athens or Sterling that are freaked out about their kids, it’s the parents with kids in Cooley or Mumford that desperantly want another option
And what options are available to them? Wally’s Schoolhouse on the second floor of Main and 42nd?
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/12 "2004-11-08T03:52:17Z")
Those schools you mentioned are the best, but they may also be high-profit. Supply and demand. When a school caters to the very rich, it can charge more moeny. I’ll bet those schools also have expensive furniture, architecture, and other trappings of facilities for the well off.
In my daughter’s school, which is probably more indicative of what a typical private school might be like, they work hard to have an average class size of 18 kids. At $3,000 per child, that’s a revenue of $54,000. If a teacher earns $35,000, that leaves $19,000 per class for rent and materials. Does that seem implausible?
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/13 "2004-11-08T03:53:25Z")
> [@Zagadka](#):
>
> And what options are available to them? Wally’s Schoolhouse on the second floor of Main and 42nd?
Private schooling is certainly a superior option to what passes for public schooling in many places. If said private school is on the ‘second floor of Main and 42nd’, then so be it. What difference would it make?
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/14 "2004-11-08T03:53:44Z")
> [@TeaElle](#):
>
> Perhaps someone who has access to actual inner-city private school cost information might want to share that, since the OP started us off with an inappropriate basis for comparison.
I’d like to see some data on inner-city private school quality alongside that, thanks.
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### Author:  [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/15 "2004-11-08T03:56:10Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> Private schooling is certainly a superior option to what passes for public schooling in many places. If said private school is on the ‘second floor of Main and 42nd’, then so be it. What difference would it make?
It creates a system of shams and scams. You have to be very careful with credentials being handed out, and low-income private schools paid via voucher have no guarantee of quality (granted, most of those related public schools don’t either, but the idea would be to raise the quality of them).
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### Author:  [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/16 "2004-11-08T04:01:13Z")
wmu, I share with others concerns about the schools you’ve named. These are nice schools, and some are selective, too, so I’m guessing they wouldn’t be an option for most families for reasons that have nothing to do with cost. But… for those who can get in, those schools also have endowments or some funds for scholarships. So the poorest students may get assistance for those costs not met by the voucher.
CAPE provides some figures on private school costs–granted, they are nationwide.
[http://www.capenet.org/facts.html](http://www.capenet.org/facts.html)
I think you’re right to be concerned about affordability, and that some families won’t have a real choice despite the vouchers. I suppose the optimistic view is that the school will be interested in retaining families who can vote with their feet, and will have incentive to make improvements. Thus, even ‘stuck’ students will benefit from that. The rising tide lifting all boats, etc. I’m not saying I endorse that.
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### Author:  [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/17 "2004-11-08T04:01:19Z")
> [@Zagadka](#):
>
> It creates a system of shams and scams. You have to be very careful with credentials being handed out, and low-income private schools paid via voucher have no guarantee of quality (granted, most of those related public schools don’t either, but the idea would be to raise the quality of them).
Well, in this area, when you say ‘private school’, it is generally assumed that it will be a Catholic school, with a few exceptions. Catholic schooling has a rather proven track record, so I wouldn’t be concerned about those. But even if the private school in question is one of these ‘private acadamies’ (Edison acadamies or something like that?), standardized testing ensures that our precious little ankle-biting demons are learning at least _something_.
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### Author:  [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/18 "2004-11-08T04:02:40Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Doesn’t the idea of “chain schools” frighten anyone else? WalMart is a huge proponent of private education, and the thought of any child receiving a WalMart education scares the shit out of me. It would create an unnatural bias towards consumerism in the materials being taught.
I give you [Devry](http://www.devry.com/). Devry Institute, as I recall, was formed by Bell and Howell, and has a very good reputation.
I see nothing at all with ‘chain’ schools. A large chain would have a vested interest in maintaining its reputation.
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### Author:  [@DadWagonDriver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DadWagonDriver)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/19 "2004-11-08T04:04:18Z")
> [@Brutus](#):
>
> You list the tuition for the schools in the nicer areas,(BISHOP FOLEY RULES! GO VENTURES! WOOOHOOOO!!!), but what about tuition for Deporres or Redeemer, in Detroit? Though I suspect they won’t be _much_ less…
I tried, but again I couldn’t find any websites for these schools.
> [@](#):
>
> But it’s not the parents with kids at Troy-Athens or Sterling that are freaked out about their kids, it’s the parents with kids in Cooley or Mumford that desperantly want another option, even if it isn’t 100% tuition coverage at a private school. (3000 bucks can certainly ease the tuition burden for poorer families, no?)
Sure, it can help, but is it enough to make it affordable? I mean, if I can’t afford $7000, what makes anyone think I can afford $4000?
> [@](#):
>
> As long as the system in certain areas continues to fail the kids (or at least those kids who try), I whole-heartedly support giving their parents flexibility in dealing with the problem. And given the fucked-up management of Detroit schools, things aren’t going to be getting better anytime soon, so the decent thing to do is give those parent who care a pass out of the system.
>
> Besides, per [DetNews](http://www.detnews.com/2004/schools/0409/07/c03-257643.htm) we are spending more like $7,300+ per student, so the voucher could be quite a chunk larger.
Yup, the voucher could be larger. Or, we could try to make the public schools better. Yes, I cost more as a public teacher than a private one, so hiring more people like me would cost more than hiring more private teachers (I wonder if this remains true as more people enroll in private schools). I really think we need to look more at reducing class sizes in the schools we already have and less at building an entirely new infrastructure that we don’t know for sure will work.
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### Author:  [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)
#### Post date: [November 8, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-debate-vouchers/273578/20 "2004-11-08T04:12:59Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#):
>
> Those schools you mentioned are the best, but they may also be high-profit. Supply and demand. When a school caters to the very rich, it can charge more moeny. I’ll bet those schools also have expensive furniture, architecture, and other trappings of facilities for the well off.
Whoa. The for-profit sector in K-12 education remains very small. I believe none of the schools named by wmulax93 fit that category; they are not-for-profit.
I don’t think the math is as simple as you say–for example, you list only the teacher’s salary, not the benefits. Don’t forget staff salaries and benefits, too (the school probably has a head of school and an administrator, maybe a music teacher? Etc.?) Education is a very labor-intensive exercise and that’s where the money goes. Is that the teacher’s actual salary, as well? Many private schools pay teachers below what they would earn at a public school. Even the fancy ones listed above. Tuition revenue from pricey schools goes toward closing the pay gap, provide better instructional resources, etc. Also to fund scholarships for students who can’t pay full freight.
For some schools, perhaps even many schools, tuition revenue does not fully cover operating costs. Catholic schools have done well because they get subsidies from their parishes and can rely on cheap well-trained labor in the form of nuns and monks. This is changing, and thus, some Catholic schools have struggled mightily to be able to provide inexpensive education.
I know this is a bit of a tangent but I cringe at the idea that these schools are raking it in and building up nice reserves because when you multiply students x tuition you come up with a figure higher than the salary of the teacher.
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