# Let's discuss how to get out of the "work experience" vicious cycle **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 1, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622 "2010-04-01T19:14:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/21 "2010-04-01T22:10:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well, I would wonder why an older person doesn’t have any work experience. lack of \*relevant \*work experience, not so much of a question ---
**Author:** ![gurujulp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba9def/32.png) [@gurujulp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gurujulp)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/22 "2010-04-01T22:12:38Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > lets assume that you don’t want to commit fraud. and let’s also assume that your prior employment can’t ever be understood to include “Experience X” (meaning that you can’t claim you have great marketing experience working as a medical lab stockroom clerk) I would expect any sort of a stockroom clerk to have a semblance of marketing experience, based on what it is they stock. There are ways that can be realistic, as well, just do a bit of research on what you’d been stocking, ask the person ordering why they chose, and POW, you have marketing experience. Not SALES experience, but marketing experience. > [@Beadalin](#): > > In the real world, employers will list all of the characteristics their ideal candidate would have, but are usually more than willing to interview and hire people who don’t have all of those characteristics. I’ll give you that it’s unlikely they will interview someone with NONE of the characteristics. > > So, school experience can count as work experience for entry-level jobs. Work experience that doesn’t correlate to the work experience they’re seeking might also count as work experience. You might not need a degree in the field they’ve cited, or a degree at all. The most important thing for an employer is that a candidate can demonstrate a willingness to learn, and articulate how they solve problems in unfamiliar situations. > > Frankly, a well-written cover letter, a personal introduction or reference, or a pleasant interview do worlds more to get you hired than exactly matching their listed qualifications. My employer list any type of college credit as direct experience. If you spent twelve years in theatre and art and never got a degree, and applied for a department head of information technology, the school would count as one for one experience, so you would have twelve years of experience in IT… ---
**Author:** ![Perciful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Perciful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Perciful)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/23 "2010-04-02T01:12:30Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > lack of \*relevant \*work experience, not so much of a question For the older Peeps this is what I did. I started my own line of work. I can no longer do my old job because of an injury so I focused on what I can do. I cut back the hours to 4 hours a day and got a client that needed someone to drive her to appointments, pour her meds and do basic shopping etc. I get paid cash and picked up a second job once a week for another client. I have lost a few due to them passing on but there is such a need for this I am never without work. If you told me 10 years ago I would be doing this I would have laughed but I really enjoy it. You can always take on more clients if you need more money. So many elderly want to stay in their homes today and some can’t drive or do yard work etc. Once you get a good reputation you will get the work. No boss, nice people to work for, make your own hours. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/24 "2010-04-02T17:15:26Z")
You persist. You keep yourself ready. You get your details out everywhere and you tell the whole world what you are good at and why they might want you one day. And you stay contactable. And you wait until some employer has a problem that you are the answer to. It’s as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Richie\_Incognito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e36b37/32.png) [@Richie\_Incognito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richie_Incognito)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/25 "2010-04-02T18:49:26Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > you need work experience to get a job > you need a job to get work experience > > Dopers’ collective wisdom, unite! > > How do you solve the seemingly unsolvable paradox that is the modern employment market. > > (edit: let’s skip the discussions about “transferable skills”, shall we? Employment type requires “Experience X”. nothing you have ever done in your past life can fairly be read on its face to include “Experience X”. Sure, you can probably twist and turn your experience into it somehow but seeing as there are probably 40 people lining up for that job with “Experience X” already…) If nothing in your past life can be read to include “Experience X” this would indicate to me that you did not go to school for this type of job and did not obtain any internships which relate to this job type. If this is the case, you are a terrible job candidate. Not much to tell this person other than either go into the field you went to school for or have experience in or go back to school or seek out internships. Your educational background is a line or two on a resume. The way to solve the paradox is to always be on the lookout for resume boosters. Look into organizations you can join. Look into offering your services to a business in your desired field. From my experience, an extra hand around the office is usually welcomed and these businesses while they may not be able to pay you or employ you, they will be more than happy to gush about you to potential employers and help you out if they can. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/26 "2010-04-02T18:56:22Z")
It’s been a very long time since I was last looking for a job with no relevant work experience, but at that time I did have somewhat similar experience in graduate school. I do software enginerring now, and at the time I was doing computer modelling as part of my Ph.D. thesis. I was able to explain to the interviewer how that was close enough to what they were looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/27 "2010-04-02T19:21:35Z")
Brit here,same problem in the U.K. After doing years of other work I got myself a seriously good,high end qualification in Health and Safety, its that good that I’m a member of the Institute which is incredibly hard to get into. But can’t get a job in that line because I haven’t got enough experience. And I can’t get enough experience because… ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/28 "2010-04-04T03:28:48Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > lack of \*relevant \*work experience, not so much of a question Same question applies. As **Richie Incognito** pointed out, it’s not the employers fault that you are a bad fit candidate. Let’s say I’m hiring for an accounting position. I have one candidate who graduated with a degree in accounting, interned at KPMG for a summer, and spent the last few years working in the accounting department of some company, why should I consider another candidate whose background doesn’t meet my needs? Most careers have entry level positions. It’s tough to get hired for those careers without that experience because those entry level jobs are where you spend countless hours learning the ins and outs through sheer repetition. > [@gurujulp](#): > > I would expect any sort of a stockroom clerk to have a semblance of marketing experience, based on what it is they stock. Why? They have absolutely nothing in common. AFAIK a stockroom clerk just manages inventory. Marketing people analyse customer data to figure out what they like and dislike. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/29 "2010-04-04T13:47:48Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > ok, not that old 🙂 > > say between college graduation and 35. Honestly, that moment of perfect experience is about two seconds long. When they don’t want you and your resume is a little light, they say you don’t have enough experience. When they don’t want you and your resume is a little heavy, they say you are over-qualified. When they want you, they don’t really care that you know two extra programming languages and have a masters degree. Or that you are missing a “required” language (you’ll pick it up on the job) and never finished your BA. And really wanting you often has more to do with the soft qualifications than the hard ones - do you know someone? Are you pleasant to get along with? Are you attractive? (yeah, sucks, but this is reality). I spent ten years working in a job that “requires” a college degree - preferably a masters - before I bothered to get my B.S. - in an unrelated field. When I got hired, there was a tight labor market, and I was by far the best candidate (they actually recruited me in - despite my utter lack of basic qualifications - like a degree.) Right now the job market is completely different. There are a ton of applicants for almost any job. Therefore they believe they will find the ideal fit. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/30 "2010-04-04T14:04:13Z")
> [@Beadalin](#): > > Frankly, a well-written cover letter, a personal introduction or reference, or a pleasant interview do worlds more to get you hired than exactly matching their listed qualifications. snip. What world do you live in? Maybe in the realm of small business owners this MIGHT be the case. Any place that has an HR dept, or a hiring manager, etc is going to look for keywords on resumes and applications and nothing else. Get around it by finding out WHO you need to talk to to get the job and make an effort to communicate with them directly. That’s the only thing that I’ve seen lately that has a chance of working. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/31 "2010-04-04T14:29:49Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > snip. > > What world do you live in? Maybe in the realm of small business owners this MIGHT be the case. Any place that has an HR dept, or a hiring manager, etc is going to look for keywords on resumes and applications and nothing else. > > Get around it by finding out WHO you need to talk to to get the job and make an effort to communicate with them directly. That’s the only thing that I’ve seen lately that has a chance of working. I suspect that’s exactly who Beadalin is suggesting you write a cover letter or get an introduction to. And obviously have an interview with. In my career I’ve done a number of courtesy interviews where the resume wouldn’t have gotten past HR, but I know the person, or someone else does. Often they don’t have the skills we need, but at least the interview gives us a better chance to find out. But we don’t have time to courtesy interview everyone, so you pretty much need a on the dot resume, or an in, to get the interview. Works the other way as well. A guy with a spot on resume happened to be leaving one of my previous employers. I didn’t know him, but I still knew people who worked there. So I called. We chose not to interview the guy who was leaving voluntarily to avoid getting fired for sleeping with his subordinates and faking his test documentation. ---
**Author:** ![Eleasarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/779978/32.png) [@Eleasarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eleasarian)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/32 "2010-04-04T19:39:43Z")
I’m having trouble getting a job at _Woolworths_ or _McDonalds_ (or other retail, filing, anything), I don’t even get called for many interviews. And no, its not how my resume is done. The same experience issue. But if I can’t even get a job at a supermarket or fast food place, how the hell am I supposed to get any experience? _deep breaths_ Its insane. (My age has the highest unemployment. Yay. And I have bad hours, so that wouldn’t be helping, at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2010, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/33 "2010-04-04T19:56:32Z")
The proper way to do this really depends on the job and industry. In some careers, like accounting or law, there’s no replacement for real experience doing the job for a real firm. So internships and such are critical. In other fields, job experience requirements might be to simply show that you’re capable of sticking with a job, and that you lasted long enough to make it through several employee reviews without being fired. In yet other fields, employers are often looking for intangibles like intelligence, drive, ability to work independently without direction, etc. When I look at resumes of new graduates, there’s often little to distinguish them. They all have the courses, they have decent grades usually, and they all generally manage to have some summer job experience. So how do you separate them? I tend to try to figure out what the person is like. I look at their other interests. A programmer candidate who maintains his own web page, writes Android apps for fun, or has hobbies like robotics or other technical field is going to get a lot more cred from me than someone who has an equivalent education but who lists his interests as “Sports and movies”. That tells me something about the amount of real dedication and how much the person really cares about the field. My last job interview was over 10 years ago. At that time, I had basically been self-employed for fifteen years, and had no relevant industry experience or any real references I could put down. I figured I’d be in real trouble trying to move back into the corporate world, but I got tons of interviews and had a job in a few days. When I asked my new boss what made him decide to interview me, he said that it was the fact that I had listed being a private pilot and having a black belt in Karate. He said that told him that I was personally motivated to achieve, and that was the most important quality he looked for. He wanted people with intelligence and ambition above all else, thinking that particular programming skills could be taught, but the other two things are intrinsic. So figure out what characteristics your particular industry looks for, and make sure you highlight them. It doesn’t have to be just education and experience. They’re hiring YOU. Make sure your resume reflects who you are, and highlights what you think are your best strengths. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/34 "2010-04-06T20:32:58Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > lack of \*relevant \*work experience, not so much of a question Depends on what you want to do. If you want to switch to brain surgery, you might have a problem. Other things might be a bit easier. Say you want to do web design. You could probably find some non-profit with a crappy page who would love for someone to fix up their page for free. Then you have something to show. If I were going to switch careers, it would be into writing. My wife does it already, and has connections. I have lots of clips, both researchy and more popular, so I have the experience. The real question is: what is it that you can do? That probably comes first. Nick at Ask the Headhunter believes that you get a job by showing you can do the job. I’ve got some issues with the details on this, but it isn’t a bad way to approach the problem. If you can do a desired job, you might be able to demonstrate it, and that could take the place of experience (at least when the job market improves.) If you really can’t do the job, yet, you might want to rethink that as a choice. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622/35 "2010-04-06T21:15:26Z")
> [@Eleasarian](#): > > I’m having trouble getting a job at _Woolworths_ or _McDonalds_ (or other retail, filing, anything), I don’t even get called for many interviews. And no, its not how my resume is done. The same experience issue. But if I can’t even get a job at a supermarket or fast food place, how the hell am I supposed to get any experience? _deep breaths_ > > Its insane. (My age has the highest unemployment. Yay. And I have bad hours, so that wouldn’t be helping, at all.) Find something - ANYTHING - you’re good at, and then go DO it, even if it’s not something you LIKE, since it will most likely be temporary. Don’t sit around crying about not getting a job - MAKE a job! Your initiative in creating your own employment will pay off in spades later. Think outside of the box… My 11-year-old daughter has a dog-poop-scooping biz she does in the spring and summer in our neighborhood. It’s not pleasant work, and it keeps her busy - but she makes about $40/day for four hours’ work (often fewer hours than that). For an 11-year-old, that’s pretty good! My 16-year-old son makes $800 per month running vending machines near (but not on) school property. He started by doing it from an Igloo cooler after school, near the ball practice fields. He eventually worked out a rental agreement with a resident adjacent to the school, and rents space in front of the guy’s garage. The kids come over and buy product from the vending machines, which Coke and Pepsi keep stocked FOR HIM. The only thing he stocks himself is the candy/snack machine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-how-to-get-out-of-the-work-experience-vicious-cycle/534622.md?page=1)