# Let's Discuss John Ford's movie, The Searchers and Red River with John Wayne **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [March 18, 2021, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205 "2021-03-18T23:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/1 "2021-03-18T23:55:58Z")
Have you seen The Searchers or Red River? Did you like it? Is it a movie you’d watch several times? I saw The Searchers in late 2020. It was riveting and the cast was very good. John Wayne plays Ethan Edwards, a hardass, cold-blooded bastard in this movie. He’s even more obsessed than Wayne’s character Thomas Dunson in Red River. The Searchers and Red River are two of Wayne’s best performances. But I can’t bring myself to watch Searchers again. It’s so depressing and horrific. Ford is too effective in showing man’s inhumanity. Maybe I’ll watch it again in 10 years. The opening scene of the happy family and what happens afterwards is so heartbreaking. I have watched Red River and enjoy it more every time. There’s a lot of subtle detail you’ll notice after seeing it a few times. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/2 "2021-03-19T16:28:58Z")
I watched the Searchers about 10 years ago and picked up a lot of subtext that may not have been intended. Like: Is Debbie Ethan’s daughter? That assumption makes that parting scene at the end one of the most poignant is cinema history. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/3 "2021-03-19T18:36:14Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Maybe I’ll watch it again in 10 years. That’ll be the day. It’s a great movie with a compelling performance by John Wayne. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/4 "2021-03-19T19:13:39Z")
Ford did better than _The Searchers._ It’s OK, but not up to things like _The Informer, Fort Apache, Stagecoach, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon_ (Wayne’s best performance) and _The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance._ Howard Hawks did so many great movies in so many genres (westerns, comedies, noir, even horror). _Red River_ may be his best western, but I prefer _The Big Sleep, His Girl Friday, Bringing Up Baby, Twentieth Century, To Have and Have Not,_ and _Ball of Fire._ ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/5 "2021-03-20T00:50:42Z")
The Searchers and Red River are two of Wayne’s best performances. I’d also include Hondo and True Grit. He played against his normal screen persona in these 4 movies. Wayne’s characters are usually not this well defined. Searchers is a great movie with an outstanding cast. It’s one of Ward Bonds best roles. I just find it too intense and realistic. I empathize too strongly with the family and what happens to their young girls.It hits too close to my home. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/6 "2021-03-20T07:15:15Z")
I’m generally a fan of John Waynes works but I thought “Red River” romance subplot dragged the film immensely and had an incredibly unsatisfying ending because of it. I liked everything about Wayne being an asshole leader, but then they save the female wagon train and it seems to become a completely different movie. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/7 "2021-03-20T14:09:30Z")
The Searchers attempts to assign “Gone With the Wind” Confederate nobility to Ethan Edwards. After the Union destroys his culture and the Comanches destroy his family, Ethan engages in a years long quest to destroy the only remaining vestige of his former life - Debbie, his niece (perhaps daughter). He has to destroy Debbie to save her from the Comanche life style. Kind of a southern Fearless Fosdick. The Searchers is laughably bad. It is as visually overwhelmed by the location as it is underwhelmed by the casting, acting and plot. Red River is a tolerable oater. With westerns like Stagecoach, She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, The Shootist and True Grit, who needs The Searchers? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/8 "2021-03-20T14:50:27Z")
A friend of mine wrote a [book](https://books.google.com/books/about/The_Cowboy_s_Trail_Guide_to_Westerns.html?id=3rYYAAAAIAAJ&source=kp_book_description) on the “Western” movie. His conclusion was that “Red River” was the Best Western ever. I still hold out for “She Wore A Yellow Ribbon.” ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/9 "2021-03-20T14:53:34Z")
Not a fan. You have to completely buy into the conceit of the fiction of this kind of history. I pretty much agree with the previous poster (Crane). But full disclosure, as much as like westerns I don’t really appreciate Wayne’s projects. He’s got about as much range as Daisy air rifle. Although I did love The Cowboys. But more for the ensemble than the star. The two best westerns ever made were Hombre and Unforgiven. Unforgiven is just straight-forward escapism grime. But for subtle subtext and complex layering it’s hard to beat Hombre. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/10 "2021-03-20T15:40:23Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > The two best westerns ever made were Hombre and Unforgiven. Unforgiven is just straight-forward escapism grime. As much as I like westerns, I find Unforgiven to be largely overrated. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/11 "2021-03-20T16:05:58Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > As much as I like westerns, I find Unforgiven to be largely overrated. I enjoyed it. But Ford did a better job of deconstructing the western myth in _The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance._ I’ve always thought _The Searchers_ was not only one of the best westerns ever made but it’s in the top 20 American movies ever made. And far from being a romantic portrayal, it’s ugly. Ethan’s bigotry is naked and he shows more of a desire to kill the Commanche than rescuing his niece (or daughter). There’s a scene later in the movie where Martin is preparing to go on a raid to rescue Debbie when Laurie Jorgensen tried to dissuade him, “Fetch what home? The leavings of a Comanche buck, sold time and again to the highest bidder, with savage brats of her own?” and concludes the conversation by telling him Ethan will put a bullet through Debbie’s head and that’s what Martha (her mother) would have wanted. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/12 "2021-03-20T16:27:33Z")
The term “Western” covers a large amount of time and territory. “She Wore a Yellow Ribbon” represents the peak of the ‘horse shit and gunsmoke’ genre. “Lonesome Dove”, “Smoke Signals”, “Lonely Are the Brave” and “Soldier Blue” are classics because they are thought provoking. ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/13 "2021-03-20T16:56:03Z")
[Dave Dictor](https://www.google.com/search?q=dave+dictor+-+john+wayne+was+a+nazi&rlz=1C1CHBD_enCA835CA835&sxsrf=ALeKk00eBmbMlIBtr8uOq-rHuKUpvOqQcQ%3A1616258999479&ei=tydWYL_YHKL89AP29pto&oq=dave+dictor+-+john+wayne+was+a+nazi&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EANQ780BWO_NAWCL0AFoAXAAeACAAUKIAX-SAQEymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwj_j538qb_vAhUiPn0KHXb7Bg0Q4dUDCA4&uact=5)might like to have a word. 🤪 ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/14 "2021-03-20T18:33:36Z")
I hate The Searchers. Wayne’s character is going to kill his niece because she had the misfortune to be kidnapped and raped. And the Olie and Lena subplot is laughable. The rest of the movie is just more crap spread around like garden manure. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/15 "2021-03-20T18:51:42Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Wayne’s character is going to kill his niece because she had the misfortune to be kidnapped and raped. That’s right. He’s a horrible person, a violent racist. That’s a key point in the movie. Is it wrong to make movies about bad people? BTW, there are people today who see a woman who has been raped as irrevocably tainted. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2021, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/16 "2021-03-20T20:18:38Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > That’s right. He’s a horrible person, a violent racist. That’s a key point in the movie. Is it wrong to make movies about bad people? He’s John Wayne. Most people won’t see him as the bad guy. Heck, people don’t even see Eastwoon in Unforgiven as the Bad Guy, > [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > BTW, there are people today who see a woman who has been raped as irrevocably tainted. And that helps how? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/17 "2021-03-21T04:41:16Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > He’s John Wayne. Most people won’t see him as the bad guy. Heck, people don’t even see Eastwoon in Unforgiven as the Bad Guy, Even in 1956, I expect most people in the audience realized that Ethan Edwards was a dick. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/18 "2021-03-21T08:02:24Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > He’s John Wayne. Most people won’t see him as the bad guy. So it’s a bad movie because you think most people won’t understand it. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > > [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > > > BTW, there are people today who see a woman who has been raped as irrevocably tainted. > > And that helps how? My point is that it’s a realistic scenario. The character of Ethan Edwards takes it to an extreme, but his attitude is unfortunately common. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/19 "2021-03-21T12:22:53Z")
“The Searchers” seems to be trying to cover too much in the time allowed. It is as though several pages of the script were missing, or as though scenes were cut without regard for continuity. (Similar to “Greed”.) After the beginning, what’s left is a montage of “here are the searchers” and “now back at the ranch”. For example, there’s one scene where John Wayne and Jeffery Hunter are riding through the snow, and — THAT’S ALL. And final “conversion” of John Wayne’s character towards saving his niece is just too abrupt. There should have been scenes leading up to it showing the internal struggle of the character. In contrast, the entire subplot of Jeffery Hunter’s accidental marriage could have been cut without damaging the story. Still, what’s left is a powerful story and worth watching. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205/20 "2021-03-21T16:17:14Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > So it’s a bad movie because you think most people won’t understand it. I think it’s a bad movie because I think it’s a bad movie. I’m sorry the whole world doesn’t agree with you. This is a discussion of the film, not a pep rally. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-john-fords-movie-the-searchers-and-red-river-with-john-wayne/938205.md?page=2)