# Let's discuss sea lioning **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 29, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060 "2015-10-29T04:51:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/41 "2015-11-01T14:47:05Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > For a real life example, I support Randi Harper on Patreon. Last month someone hacked Patreon, my email got leaked and my support for her got made public, and I ended up with emails like this in my inbox: Thanks for providing an example, **Banquet Bear** - I agree that email does fit the bill in terms of sealioning. I’d guess that we had trouble finding examples because the tactic doesn’t see much use in most parts of the internet, but gamergate spawned all kinds of nastiness I wouldn’t see in other parts of the internet as well. I think with this example we can put the idea that sealioning doesn’t exist to bed. It may not be particularly common to people who aren’t likely to be victims of it, but we shouldn’t mistake our own experience for _everyone’s_ experience. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/42 "2015-11-01T15:11:13Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The strip was funny. As a meme though it’s pretty useless as when sea lioning is inappropriate it never happens and when it does happen it’s not inappropriate. I’m not sure I understand when it would ever be appropriate. You are more than entitled to ask me why I said or believe something. I am thereby entitled to choose whether or not I want to discuss it with you. if I choose not to, you are _not_ entitled to follow me around and constantly harass me for a response. I don’t _owe_ you anything, take the hint and go away. (in the above, “you” is meant in a general sense and not the poster to whom I am replying.) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/43 "2015-11-01T20:13:19Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The conversation in the cartoon has literally played out in real life. It was the systematic blockading of twitter feeds/email accounts/youtube comments by people “just asking questions” and feigning politeness. They literally deny gamergate is responsible for any abuse or threats, demand evidence of abuse and when presented with evidence claim that it is either faked, the responsibility of “third party trolls” or if it didn’t include the hashtag then it “didn’t come from them.” > > It is difficult to do what you are trying to do (frame this outside the perspective of gamergate) because sea-lioning really is all about gamergate. It is something you really need to see first hand to really get an understanding of it. _Thank you._ You win the thread. I’d really like to nail this though. If you could provide a link documenting this sort of harassment, it would be nice. Sorry you had to deal with that. Sorry that others had to deal with worse. > [@jz78817](#): > > I’m not sure I understand when it would ever be appropriate. You are more than entitled to ask me why I said or believe something. I am thereby entitled to choose whether or not I want to discuss it with you. if I choose not to, you are not entitled to follow me around and constantly harass me for a response. I don’t owe you anything, take the hint and go away. If you mention me by name in a public venue and I show up, I think I have the right to ask more than one question. That’s appropriate. I was basically claiming that the sole example of sea lioning that I discovered via my search engine involved wholly acceptable behavior. For appalling sea lioning, see **Banquet Bear** ’s post. (I obviously retract my claim.) And as he notes, sea lioning is one of the milder forms of harassment involved in gamergate. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/44 "2015-11-01T20:38:05Z")
> [@](#): > > If you mention me by name in a public venue and I show up, I think I have the right to ask more than one question. yes, that is what I said. What I also said is that you aren’t entitled to a response. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/45 "2015-11-01T20:38:06Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’d really like to nail this though. If you could provide a link documenting this sort of harassment, it would be nice. Are you asking **Banquet Bear** to provide a link to an email they received? **Measure for Measure** - I think it might be a better idea to google the first line of the email provided by **Banquet Bear** … that will lead you to this story: > **[GamerGaters Are Targeting People Who Were Victims of the Patreon Hack](https://www.vice.com/en/article/gamergaters-are-targeting-people-who-were-victims-of-the-patreon-hack/)** > > Donors to Randi Harper's anti-harassment campaign are now being harassed themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/46 "2015-11-01T22:49:57Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > yes, that is what I said. What I also said is that you aren’t entitled to a response. Ok, then we’re in agreement. I say that basically I can repeat my question, ID my attacker as stonewalling, lacking evidence and question their integrity if they make a baseless attack on me. I can’t demand a response of course. Neither is it appropriate to start a multi-day one sided campaign, never mind an email blast. (All of that remains a hypothetical of course and if the parties were pseudo-anonymous then the appropriate responses would be milder. And if the derogatory comment was directed at a group like gamers, anime fans or whomever the appropriate response would be milder still.) > [@wevets](#): > > Are you asking **Banquet Bear** to provide a link to an email they received? > **Measure for Measure** - I think it might be a better idea to google the first line of the email provided by **Banquet Bear** … that will lead you to this story: > > [GamerGaters Are Targeting People Who Were Victims of the Patreon Hack](http://motherboard.vice.com/read/gamergaters-are-targeting-people-who-were-victims-of-the-patreon-hack) Ideally, I wanted some journalistic description of actual sea lioning, something like you provided. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/47 "2015-11-01T23:25:10Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’d really like to nail this though. If you could provide a link documenting this sort of harassment, it would be nice. …one of the things you have to remember is that gamergate has been going for a year and I’m not really in the mood to dig through people’s twitter feeds to signal boost the voice of some very nasty people. One of the things that Randi Harper did (and one of the reasons I have chosen to back her on Patreon) is that she developed a “block bot” on twitter that does a very effective job of automatically blocking accounts that are liable to be gg supporters. So this has become a much smaller problem for many people on the net recently and also makes examples harder to find. But I’ll post a few examples. (Warning, NSFW, and some not very nice stuff.) “a\_man\_in\_black”, along with a lot of people came out in support of someone who definitely did something really stupid when they were younger. The Ralph Retort’s response was to ask “Do you support pedophiles, yes or no?” [https://twitter.com/TheRalphRetort/status/638590694836305920](https://twitter.com/TheRalphRetort/status/638590694836305920) Milo, a “journalist” who writes for Brietbart and who wrote the articles cited by “The Witchfinder” in the email above started this exchange recently: this time documented by Harper in a “storify” to make it easier to follow. [https://storify.com/freebsdgirl/a-lesson-in-dogpiling](https://storify.com/freebsdgirl/a-lesson-in-dogpiling) And to be clear: I really didn’t get sea-lioned. I got a few emails, I spammed them, I went on with life. I used it as an example of what the targets of GG have to put up with because I really didn’t want to put the spotlight on people who really don’t need it. They get hundreds of similarly themed messages like this every day (in the form of tweets/emails/messages). I’m not the target of these people. I’m a male, I’m not a “social justice warrior”, I only discuss gamergate in places like the Straight Dope where I am relatively anonymous and where I am protected by good moderation. I keep my head down. Some people don’t get that option. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/48 "2015-11-02T00:20:23Z")
I’m almost sorry I asked. But not really: I think this stuff needs to be documented. Thanks again to Banquet Bear and wevets for nailing this down. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/49 "2015-11-02T17:58:41Z")
Sea lioning seems like it shifts the attention to how you’re saying something terrible instead of what terrible thing you’re saying. A lot of posters here indulge in the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/50 "2015-11-02T19:26:34Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Sea lioning seems like it shifts the attention to how you’re saying something terrible instead of what terrible thing you’re saying. A lot of posters here indulge in the same thing. Could you elaborate a little? I’m confused by this description. I think maybe you mean that sealioning derails the conversation from what it was originally intended by introducing outrageous statements/questions? I’m not sure though. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/51 "2015-11-02T21:59:26Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Could you elaborate a little? I’m confused by this description. > > I think maybe you mean that sealioning derails the conversation from what it was originally intended by introducing outrageous statements/questions? I’m not sure though. Ah ha, you’re doing it to me! Good show old chap! :p;) ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/52 "2015-11-02T22:08:39Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Ah ha, you’re doing it to me! Good show old chap! :p;) Darn! I didn’t also get to ask if you preferred sardines or were one of those herring-masticating bastards? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060/53 "2015-11-03T16:45:10Z")
> [@wevets](#): > > Darn! I didn’t also get to ask if you preferred sardines or were one of those herring-masticating bastards? 😃 For your information I like them both equally, but I prefer catfish because of its meaty chunks [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-discuss-sea-lioning/736060.md?page=2)