# Let's face it, the real problem is handguns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337 "2015-12-03T18:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/81 "2015-12-04T22:00:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you trolling us? Or do you somehow not realize that you are a part of that “general vitriolic culture”? Go read [your first post in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18907869&postcount=3) again. It’s filled with vitriol (and not much else). “gundamentalists” “collective mental illness” “paranoid” “magic” “manliness” “magic sticks”. I don’t think you could have crammed more stupid (and vitriolic) stereotypes into that post if you’d been trying to. But, you know, septimus liked it and is going to pit me (since I was the one quoted) for slamming that first post. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/82 "2015-12-04T22:05:33Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’ve got to agree and I’m not remotely a gun-rights guy. I was just about to post how unhelpful it is to describe all gun owners as angry scaredy-pants. #notallgunowners ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/83 "2015-12-04T22:09:29Z")
As I posted before: People forget there are really damn few “gun nuts” in this county. Many own guns for hunting or for their jobs (I was a armed security guard for years). The NRA has maybe 3MM members, and there are 300MM Americans. So, maybe 1% of Americans are 'gun nuts", even tho almost 100MM Americans own a gun. So, it’s not “Gun nuts” or whatever crazy name dudes are calling them today. It’s your neighbor Bob who shoots skeet, you cousin George who hunts deer, your Aunt Mable who inherited her husbands Police .38, your co-worker Alice who was raped and bought a gun to keep under her pillow. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/84 "2015-12-04T22:25:04Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you trolling us? Or do you somehow not realize that you are a part of that “general vitriolic culture”? Go read [your first post in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18907869&postcount=3) again. It’s filled with vitriol (and not much else). “gundamentalists” “collective mental illness” “paranoid” “magic” “manliness” “magic sticks”. I don’t think you could have crammed more stupid (and vitriolic) stereotypes into that post if you’d been trying to. Are you an “us”? :dubious: Yeah that comment was a bit unfair. I should have said “generally hostile and/or aggressive” rather than “vitriolic”. I don’t think there’s anything specifically vitriolic about “gundamentalist”, it seems like a funny and self-explanatory word. I picked it up yesterday and have been using it a lot. I like it. What’s wrong about it? Paranoia and collective mental illness also seems like an ok way to describe a group of people who are incredibly afraid and think that others are out to get them. The manliness and magic sticks also seem pretty clear. It’s pretty obvious that the gun-culture is a masculinity issue, and I’m pretty sure there is a subconscious connection between the owner and the gun that can be traced to the pre-operational “symbolic” cognitive functions that are associated with magic. Just like having a good luck charm will make some people feel lucky, having a gun makes some people feel safe. That is called “magical thinking”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/85 "2015-12-04T22:26:40Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I don’t think there’s anything specifically vitriolic about “gundamentalist”, it seems like a funny and self-explanatory word. I picked it up yesterday and have been using it a lot. I like it. What’s wrong about it? > > Paranoia and collective mental illness also seems like an ok way to describe a group of people who are incredibly afraid and think that others are out to get them. > > The manliness and magic sticks also seem pretty clear. It’s pretty obvious that the gun-culture is a masculinity issue, and I’m pretty sure there is a subconscious connection between the owner and the gun that can be traced to the pre-operational “symbolic” cognitive functions that are associated with magic. Just like having a good luck charm will make some people feel lucky, having a gun makes some people feel safe. That is called “magical thinking”. People forget there are really damn few “gun nuts” in this county. Many own guns for hunting or for their jobs (I was a armed security guard for years). The NRA has maybe 3MM members, and there are 300MM Americans. So, maybe 1% of Americans are 'gun nuts", even tho almost 100MM Americans own a gun. So, it’s not “Gun nuts” or whatever crazy name dudes are calling them today. It’s your neighbor Bob who shoots skeet, you cousin George who hunts deer, your Aunt Mable who inherited her husbands Police .38, your co-worker Alice who was raped and bought a gun to keep under her pillow. So- no- you post is 99% wrong. But only 99%, hey that’s not bad! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/86 "2015-12-04T22:32:25Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Are you an “us”? :dubious: > > Yeah that comment was a bit unfair. I should have said “generally hostile and/or aggressive” rather than “vitriolic”. > > I don’t think there’s anything specifically vitriolic about “gundamentalist”, it seems like a funny and self-explanatory word. I picked it up yesterday and have been using it a lot. I like it. What’s wrong about it? > > Paranoia and collective mental illness also seems like an ok way to describe a group of people who are incredibly afraid and think that others are out to get them. > > The manliness and magic sticks also seem pretty clear. It’s pretty obvious that the gun-culture is a masculinity issue, and I’m pretty sure there is a subconscious connection between the owner and the gun that can be traced to the pre-operational “symbolic” cognitive functions that are associated with magic. Just like having a good luck charm will make some people feel lucky, having a gun makes some people feel safe. That is called “magical thinking”. Because you paint with a ridiculously broad brush and in ridiculous caricatures that would have made Der Trihs proud? That it’s a content free bash that brings nothing to any debate but is just, you know, a content free bash. It doesn’t address the topic of the thread, it doesn’t discuss really anything, it’s just a slam. I guess it’s all good though since you didn’t get slammed by a mod…AND you have septimus giving you props too, so go you!! ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/87 "2015-12-04T22:33:54Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Because you paint with a ridiculously broad brush and in ridiculous caricatures that would have made Der Trihs proud? That it’s a content free bash that brings nothing to any debate but is just, you know, a content free bash. It doesn’t address the topic of the thread, it doesn’t discuss really anything, it’s just a slam. I guess it’s all good though since you didn’t get slammed by a mod…AND you have septimus giving you props too, so go you!! That’s just an opinion, dude. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/88 "2015-12-04T22:38:21Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Just like having a good luck charm will make some people feel lucky, having a gun makes some people feel safe. That is called “magical thinking”. Who calls it “magical thinking” besides you? Would you say that someone that wears a seatbelt and feels safer for it is engaged in “magical thinking” too? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/89 "2015-12-04T22:40:50Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Paranoia and collective mental illness also seems like an ok way to describe a group of people who are incredibly afraid and think that others are out to get them. What evidence do you have that gun owners, as a group, are “incredibly afraid and think that others are out to get them”? Is there some study that quantifies their level of fear, compared with, say, non-gun-owning Americans, that demonstrates that as a group, they are far more afraid? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/90 "2015-12-04T22:46:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Who calls it “magical thinking” besides you? > > Would you say that someone that wears a seatbelt and feels safer for it is engaged in “magical thinking” too? If owning an X (or doing X) does not ACTUALLY make you safer, but makes you FEEL safer then it is “[magical thinking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking)”. Putting on your seatbelt will radically reduce the risk of you dying if you are in an accident, so it would not be considered magical thinking. Owning a gun does in fact make you LESS safe statistically, so it IS a fallacy of the mind that could be categorized as magical thinking. Just like wearing your lucky shorts to the football game in order to make your team win. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/91 "2015-12-04T22:49:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What evidence do you have that gun owners, as a group, are “incredibly afraid and think that others are out to get them”? Is there some study that quantifies their level of fear, compared with, say, non-gun-owning Americans, that demonstrates that as a group, they are far more afraid? If this is not self evident to you by now, I don’t think there is any evidence in the world that can convince you. What is the most common motivation heard from people who defend the right to own guns? It’s SAFETY. What is the emotion connected to not feeling safe? It is FEAR. What do you call someone who thinks other people (like the government) are out to get them without evidence? Paranoid. QED ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/92 "2015-12-04T22:50:41Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Owning a gun does in fact make you LESS safe statistically. You do realize there’s a good bit of debate about that, right? It’s hardly “settled science” (to borrow a phrase). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/93 "2015-12-04T22:57:21Z")
[QUOTE=Stoneburg;18911559Owning a gun does in fact make you LESS safe statistically, so it IS a fallacy of the mind that could be categorized as magical thinking. [/QUOTE] Sure, if you live in a “household” with drug dealers, gangbangers and other criminals. Have you actually, you know-\* read\* the study? And the study also pointed out that most other gun owners surveyed lived in really bad neighborhoods, where there has always been a greater chance of being murdered. So, if you live with criminals or live in a bad neighborhood- yes, your chances of being shot go up. No duh. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/94 "2015-12-04T22:59:00Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > What is the most common motivation heard from people who defend the right to own guns? It’s SAFETY. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/95 "2015-12-04T22:59:07Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You do realize there’s a good bit of debate about that, right? It’s hardly “settled science” (to borrow a phrase). As far as I can tell there is no “settled science” to be had in the world. The theory of evolution has been around for what, 150 years now? Is there ANYTHING that we can agree on is “settled”? I think not. But for me this point and many others actually are settled. If some new evidence turns up I’ll change my mind, but as far as I can tell it’s the same stupid memes being recycled over and over (and over and over) again. Gun control works = SETTLED Evolution happens = SETTLED AGW is real = SETTLED I’m not interested in going round and round with people who refuse to accept basic facts about reality. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/96 "2015-12-04T23:01:31Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > As far as I can tell there is no “settled science” to be had in the world. The theory of evolution has been around for what, 150 years now? Is there ANYTHING that we can agree on is “settled”? I think not. > Gun control works = SETTLED > Evolution happens = SETTLED _No_ scientist believes that Evolution is not the primary motivator of change in species and new species. Settled. Gun Control has never significantly reduced violent crime in the USA- settled. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/97 "2015-12-04T23:03:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite? Three things: 1. How are you incapable of seeing that? 2. What sort of “cite” would satisfy you enough to make you change your mind and accept the new information as true. 3. Can you provide evidence that you have previously changed your position and opinion (and acknowledged that) when getting a cite? If you can answer those three I might dignify your request with a few minutes of activity. If not, I’m not going to waste my time. If you want to keep garbage information in your mind it’s not up to me to change it, clean your own house. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/98 "2015-12-04T23:04:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _No_ scientist believes that Evolution is not the primary motivator of change in species and new species. Settled. > > Gun Control has never significantly reduced violent crime in the USA- settled. Stoneburg and DrDeth will never agree on this - Settled Continuing the “conversation” is therefore pointless - Settled? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/99 "2015-12-04T23:08:19Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Three things: > > 1. How are you incapable of seeing that? > > 2. What sort of “cite” would satisfy you enough to make you change your mind and accept the new information as true. > > 3. Can you provide evidence that you have previously changed your position and opinion (and acknowledged that) when getting a cite? > > If you can answer those three I might dignify your request with a few minutes of activity. If not, I’m not going to waste my time. If you want to keep garbage information in your mind it’s not up to me to change it, clean your own house. So- \*ya got nothing? \*Then your first point is invalid, thus no QED for you, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/100 "2015-12-04T23:16:23Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > Are you an “us”? :dubious: > > Yeah that comment was a bit unfair. I should have said “generally hostile and/or aggressive” rather than “vitriolic”. > > I don’t think there’s anything specifically vitriolic about “gundamentalist”, it seems like a funny and self-explanatory word. I picked it up yesterday and have been using it a lot. I like it. What’s wrong about it? > > Paranoia and collective mental illness also seems like an ok way to describe a group of people who are incredibly afraid and think that others are out to get them. > > The manliness and magic sticks also seem pretty clear. It’s pretty obvious that the gun-culture is a masculinity issue, and I’m pretty sure there is a subconscious connection between the owner and the gun that can be traced to the pre-operational “symbolic” cognitive functions that are associated with magic. Just like having a good luck charm will make some people feel lucky, having a gun makes some people feel safe. That is called “magical thinking”. Stoneburg, this post will earn you a warning for insulting other posters even if you didn’t name them. If you can’t participate in a debate without such behaviors I encourage you to do so in the BBQ Pit. But don’t do it here again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337.md?page=6)