# Let's face it, the real problem is handguns **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337 "2015-12-03T18:57:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/101 "2015-12-04T23:27:09Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you trolling us? Or do you somehow not realize that you are a part of that “general vitriolic culture”? Go read [your first post in this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18907869&postcount=3) again. It’s filled with vitriol (and not much else). “gundamentalists” “collective mental illness” “paranoid” “magic” “manliness” “magic sticks”. I don’t think you could have crammed more stupid (and vitriolic) stereotypes into that post if you’d been trying to. HD, I’m giving you a warning. You should know it’s against the rules to refer to another poster as a ‘troll’ on the SDMB. Please don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/102 "2015-12-04T23:32:18Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So- \*ya got nothing? \*Then your first point is invalid, thus no QED for you, dude. Your failure to understand something or agree with my (current) position has exactly zero influence on anything other than your own mind state, as far as I am concerned. I’m quite happy with allowing your current perspectives to keep existing, but I am not interested in sharing them. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/103 "2015-12-04T23:34:30Z")
Stereotypical liberal response. All the evidence is pointing to the fact that this latest incident was a terrorist attack. So do they talk about the problem of Muslim extremism? Heaven forbid. No, even though California has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation they want to talk gun control. Perhaps the sort of total control of guns that France has. They certainly proved effective, didn’t they? Once again, the real problem here is Muslim extremism. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/104 "2015-12-04T23:52:00Z")
> [@Oredigger77](#): > > I’m curious what non-gun self defense weapon should people camping where wolves have be reintroduced carry? How about those that fish the Kenai peninsula where grizzly bears are know to appear occasionally? I bought my only hand gun for back country fishing in mountain lion and black bear country, of course I also traveled with my dog but what should I have used? Admittedly, when someone talks about guns for self-defense, I think “muggers and burglars,” not “wolves and bears.” So, you got me there - I hadn’t considered it from that view point. Mind, I’m not arguing for banning any more guns, just against the simply dumb idea that owning guns is in anyway comparable with civil rights laws. Civil rights laws protect people from being thrown out of their homes, fired from their jobs, or losing their children because they’re the “wrong” ethnicity/religion/sexual minority. There’s simply no comparable threat to gun owners. If guns were completely banned tomorrow, everywhere, all that would mean for gun owners is they wouldn’t be allowed to practice their hobby anymore. An America without guns would be no less free or prosperous than an America without scrapbooking. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/105 "2015-12-04T23:59:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Admittedly, when someone talks about guns for self-defense, I think “muggers and burglars,” not “wolves and bears.” So, you got me there - I hadn’t considered it from that view point. > > Mind, I’m not arguing for banning any more guns, just against the simply dumb idea that owning guns is in anyway comparable with civil rights laws. Civil rights laws protect people from being thrown out of their homes, fired from their jobs, or losing their children because they’re the “wrong” ethnicity/religion/sexual minority. There’s simply no comparable threat to gun owners. If guns were completely banned tomorrow, everywhere, all that would mean for gun owners is they wouldn’t be allowed to practice their hobby anymore. An America without guns would be no less free or prosperous than an America without scrapbooking. I believe that you believe this, but it is not congruous with the recognition in Heller and McDonald. Guns, specifically, handguns, are how people typically exercise their right to self defense. Without this ability, the weak would be at the mercy of the strong, among other things. The incorporation process used in McDonald recognized that the right to keep and bear arms is among those fundamental rights necessary to our system of ordered liberty. Equating gun ownership to merely a hobby is shortsighted and in error. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/106 "2015-12-05T00:22:02Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Once again, the real problem here is Muslim extremism. Yes, once again. Except last week when it was anti-abortion. And besides the week before when it was just some crazy. And you know, most mass killings in the US. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/107 "2015-12-05T02:13:03Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Yes, once again. Except last week when it was anti-abortion. …which could also be well-characterized as “Christian extremism”. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/108 "2015-12-05T02:30:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Admittedly, when someone talks about guns for self-defense, I think “muggers and burglars,” not “wolves and bears.” So, you got me there - I hadn’t considered it from that view point. > > Mind, I’m not arguing for banning any more guns, just against the simply dumb idea that owning guns is in anyway comparable with civil rights laws. Civil rights laws protect people from being thrown out of their homes, fired from their jobs, or losing their children because they’re the “wrong” ethnicity/religion/sexual minority. There’s simply no comparable threat to gun owners. If guns were completely banned tomorrow, everywhere, all that would mean for gun owners is they wouldn’t be allowed to practice their hobby anymore. An America without guns would be no less free or prosperous than an America without scrapbooking. Don’t know how old you are or where you live…“Smear the queer” was a not uncommon game for groups of young men when I was young. Maybe you know it better as fag bashing. My guess, maybe I am wrong, ,is that you never faced 1st hand getting the life stomped out of you by stronger and/or more numerous foes because of your sexuality. Would you consider possession of the gun more of a vital civil right if it was all that stood between you and being beaten to death for your sexual preference? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/109 "2015-12-05T02:47:27Z")
> [@jshore](#): > > …which could also be well-characterized as “Christian extremism”. Not really, imho. People only want to grab that idea to try and shove GOP talking points back down their throats. I think because they are generally so one issue, anti-abortion terrorist is just fine. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/110 "2015-12-05T14:21:54Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > The manliness and magic sticks also seem pretty clear. It’s pretty obvious that the gun-culture is a masculinity issue, and I’m pretty sure there is a subconscious connection between the owner and the gun that can be traced to the pre-operational “symbolic” cognitive functions that are associated with magic. Just like having a good luck charm will make some people feel lucky, having a gun makes some people feel safe. That is called “magical thinking”. Funny that you think a person who takes responsibility for their self defense into their own hands, who obtains the tools necessary to do so and becomes proficient in using them is engaged in “magical thinking”. While a person who waits around, imploring a bunch of old men to write “no, don’t” on a piece of paper, and believes that that will eliminate all the dangers they might ever face, isn’t. Do all police officers, soldiers, secret service, etc also engage in “magical thinking”, in your mind? Or does a government job make all the difference in the value of a firearm for self defense? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/111 "2015-12-05T15:22:17Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I believe that you believe this, but it is not congruous with the recognition in Heller and McDonald… > Without [guns], the weak would be at the mercy of the strong … Lest anyone give this opinion more value than it deserves, please note that the SCOTUS rulings in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago were both decided by 5-4 votes. Yes, that’s with the usual GOP/NRA-allied fatuosities (Scalia, Thomas, Alito) voting with the 5. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/112 "2015-12-05T15:27:56Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Lest anyone give this opinion more value than it deserves, please note that the SCOTUS rulings in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago were both decided by 5-4 votes. Yes, that’s with the usual GOP/NRA-allied fatuosities (Scalia, Thomas, Alito) voting with the 5. If it had gone 5-4 the other way, would you say the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/113 "2015-12-05T16:29:28Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If it had gone 5-4 the other way, would you say the same thing? Absolutely not. We would be told that the majority ruled so suck it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/114 "2015-12-05T17:08:11Z")
A huge portion of Supreme Court cases these days are split 4-4 until the Court’s “centrist,” Anthony Kennedy, casts the deciding vote. > [@Scumpup](#): > > If it had gone 5-4 the other way, would you say the same thing? I’ve no idea what _your_ point is. My point was that the poster I quoted seemed to celebrate that the intention of Yahweh (or Thomas Jefferson, or the Baby Jesus, or whoever the gun nuts think inscribed the Second Commandment in stone) had finally been Revealed. Instead, we learned the opinion of one man, Arthur Kennedy. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/115 "2015-12-05T17:13:06Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > A huge portion of Supreme Court cases these days are split 4-4 until the Court’s “centrist,” Anthony Kennedy, casts the deciding vote. > > I’ve no idea what _your_ point is. > > My point was that the poster I quoted seemed to celebrate that the intention of Yahweh (or Thomas Jefferson, or the Baby Jesus, or whoever the gun nuts think inscribed the Second Commandment in stone) had finally been Revealed. Instead, we learned the opinion of one man, Arthur Kennedy. My point is that if the decision had gone the way you wanted it to, you wouldn’t be pissing and moaning about a 5-4 split. More likely, you’d be all “The Court has spoken. Law of the land!” So…The majority ruled. Suck it. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/116 "2015-12-05T17:21:46Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > My point is that if the decision had gone the way you wanted it to, you wouldn’t be pissing and moaning about a 5-4 split. More likely, you’d be all “The Court has spoken. Law of the land!” > > So…The majority ruled. Suck it. In other words, you responded to the poster you wanted me to be, someone who’s perspective is orthogonal to my own. I’ve said over and over that gun rights is not an issue that interests me. I read the gun nuts’ threads just for recreational outrage. (Am I allowed to describe, outside the Pit, the impression that the apparent “thoughts” of pro-gunners leaves?) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/117 "2015-12-05T17:44:20Z")
1/2 point for not only using the word “orthogonal,” but also spelling it right. If the issue doesn’t interest you, why are you in this thread at all? Further, why are you trying to delegitimize the court’s ruling, based on number of votes, if you have no interest? I was born at night, but it wasn’t last night. A fellow who has no interest would be off in a thread about kittens or movies or something that did interest him. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/118 "2015-12-05T18:14:19Z")
Alternate reality: **Kitten pic thread** Kittylover312: [url=pic.com/cutekitty.jpeg](http://url=pic.com/cutekitty.jpeg) Sep: i am more a dog person but that’s a pretty cute kitty sumppump: don’t bullshit me. If you weren’t a cat person you’d be posting in some puppy or gun control thread ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/119 "2015-12-05T18:26:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > A huge portion of Supreme Court cases these days are split 4-4 until the Court’s “centrist,” Anthony Kennedy, casts the deciding vote. I’d love to know how you define “huge portion” and “these days”. By my understanding your statement is wrong but I’m sure you can provide support for you statement. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337/120 "2015-12-05T18:34:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Lest anyone give this opinion more value than it deserves, please note that the SCOTUS rulings in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago were both decided by 5-4 votes. Yes, that’s with the usual GOP/NRA-allied fatuosities (Scalia, Thomas, Alito) voting with the 5. The gay marriage case was also a 5-4 vote. Abortion rights were upheld by a 5-4 vote. Are you saying that Supreme Court cases are only valuable when there are 6 or more votes in the majority? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-face-it-the-real-problem-is-handguns/739337.md?page=7)