# Let's fix teenaged gunman shootings **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028 "2007-12-06T15:00:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/181 "2007-12-08T23:12:50Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Where’d the stepfather get an AK from? That’s just _odd_. Probably an illegal war trophy shipped home from Nam? [/QUOTE] My local Dunham’s Sports has at least 20 of them, ranging from imports to accurized and modified models. Again, though, it’s worth noting that the AK-47 is a specific weapon. This guy was, with 99.999% certainty, carrying a semi-automatic variant of an actual AK-47. There is no way that it was select fire. Again, I make this point because some people like to capitalize on the ignorance of people to attempt to push through bans based on similar appearance to other weapons of dissimilar function. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/182 "2007-12-09T01:13:58Z")
If it’s an actual AK-47, it’s not a semi-automatic, now is it? That’s why I’m surprised. Hm. After careful review, there’s a metric assload of AK-47 alike semi-automatics, that are also called AK-47s. Right. Let’s rephrase my statement above. “An AK-47? Huh. I heard some odd statements that were to the effect that the goverment wasn’t sure the stepfather had it legally. If it was a fully automatic AK-47, that’d explain it. Was it, or was it a semi-automatic?” Note: I don’t like AKs much, so I’ve never paid attention to the sporting variants. I know the models, but I always assumed the semi-automatic varieties had a slightly different _actual_ name, like the M-16’s AR-15 cousin. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/183 "2007-12-09T01:14:08Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Where’d the stepfather get an AK from? That’s just _odd_. Probably an illegal war trophy shipped home from Nam? [/QUOTE] As others have said, it’s not a REAL AK-47 like you see on the enemy in 'Nam, or in the movies. It is a modified version that is semi-automatic only, legally sold in the U.S. Same way with the SKS; not the real deal, modified semi-auto version. This creates confusion, as it confused you as well, because people watch war documentaries on the History Channel and see AK-47s, then hear that term again and think that THOSE are the weapons on the streets of the U.S. Nothing could be further from the truth.. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/184 "2007-12-09T01:27:44Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] Note: I don’t like AKs much, so I’ve never paid attention to the sporting variants. I know the models, but I always assumed the semi-automatic varieties had a slightly different _actual_ name, like the M-16’s AR-15 cousin. [/QUOTE] M16s often carry AR-15 markings. The only real difference is the bolt and trigger group. If you buy those parts (legally) and install them in your AR-15, voila! You have a select-fire AR-15. Those parts, not the weapon per se, are the parts that are controlled. If you peruse the gun auction sites, you’ll find that the receivers and the conversion parts are the controlled items. The entire weapon need not be included, or even assembled. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/185 "2007-12-09T02:55:20Z")
I’m aware of that, as well, Airman. My goal in life is to build an Alexander Arms Beowulf and use it to shoot old computers to extreme death with. I just wasn’t aware there was no other term for an AK-47 (civilian) than AK-47. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/186 "2007-12-09T03:13:27Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] I’m aware of that, as well, Airman. My goal in life is to build an Alexander Arms Beowulf and use it to shoot old computers to extreme death with. I just wasn’t aware there was no other term for an AK-47 (civilian) than AK-47. [/QUOTE] While you’re talking about blowing things up, check out what a [50 BMG does to a running lawn mower](http://www.serbu.com/legacy/lawnmwr.htm). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/187 "2007-12-09T03:35:01Z")
[QUOTE=jtgain] As others have said, it’s not a REAL AK-47 like you see on the enemy in 'Nam, or in the movies. It is a modified version that is semi-automatic only, legally sold in the U.S. Same way with the SKS; not the real deal, modified semi-auto version. [/QUOTE] No, they are the real deal. They just have the semii-auto trigger on them. What you’re suggesting is like saying my car isn’t really a Mustang GT because I didn’t opt for the Cobra version. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/188 "2007-12-09T13:18:02Z")
We try to find blame for these shootings in many areas, the family, guns, society, etc., but I believe we need to look at the shooter, and the society that breeds them. Suicides are up, way up here in the U.S. Sometimes the person who wishes to commit suicide wants to take others with them. They don’t like themselves or others or their lives. We send them school to learn a lot of facts and give them nothing to live for or by. I like the work of Victor E. Frankl to help explain why. We need meaning to life. Frankl survived a German death camp and taught a meaning to life. > **[Man's Search for Meaning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man's_Search_for_Meaning)** > > Man's Search for Meaning is a 1946 book by Viktor Frankl chronicling his experiences as a prisoner in Nazi concentration camps during World War II, and describing his psychotherapeutic method, which involved identifying a purpose to each person's life through one of three ways: the completion of tasks, caring for another person, or finding meaning by facing suffering with dignity. > Frankl observed that among the fellow inmates in the concentration camp, those who survived were able to connect wi... ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/189 "2007-12-09T14:21:40Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] No, they are the real deal. They just have the semii-auto trigger on them. What you’re suggesting is like saying my car isn’t really a Mustang GT because I didn’t opt for the Cobra version. [/QUOTE] I think it is more like saying you have a Mustang, when you really have a Focus just because Ford made it. Sure, the two guns are cosmetically the same, but the fact that it is semi-auto only makes it a knock off.. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/190 "2007-12-09T14:53:15Z")
[QUOTE=Polerius] I wonder if you would be so non-challant if it were your wife, daughter, or mother that was killed in this latest event. After hearing that your close relative died, you’d just say: “Shit happens. Not all problems can (or should) be solved. It’s part of the price you pay for living in a free society”? [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Polerius] Is there a limit to how “occasional” the occasional psycho thing happens where you might be willing to consider banning guns, if they made us safer? […] If not, is there a limit? Is there a number of dead per day that you would say “I’ll give up my right to bear arms to stop this madness”? If yes, is your current unwillingness to agree to gun control solely based on the relatively small number of people killed per day? If not, why not? If gun control would make us safer, what is so fundamental about guns that you would rather live in a war zone than give them up? [/QUOTE] Just out of curiousity, if your wife, daughter or mother were killed by someone and the killer ended up walking because the police didn’t read him his rights before getting a confession and/or failed to get a valid search warrant, would you no longer buy the old ‘Better a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent man go to jail’ saying? Similarly, is there a limit to the number of psychos walking the street before you’d say ‘I’ll give up my 4th and 5th Ammendment rights to stop this madness’? If your answer to these questions is no, please explain why you think the answer should be different for the 2nd Ammendment. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/191 "2007-12-09T16:14:00Z")
From news reports, the shooter in this instance had the weapon the night before and showed it to the mother of the friend he was living with. She thought it was too old be be functional. about an hour before the shootings, he called this woman and directed her to his suicide note. (unconfirmed rumors have it that he mentions “taking a few pieces of shit with me”) One wonders why she did not pick up the phone and call authorities to maybe let them know there was a very depressed and suicidal teen with a gun wandering around the city and that looking for him might be the thing to do… ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/192 "2007-12-09T16:18:21Z")
Two of the members of the shooter’s circle of friends have been arrested for sending threatening text messages to a girl that has come forward to talk about the shooter’s history. When I get a text message, the sender is pretty clearly identified and I can save the message for as long as I like. That would not be the method I would use to make a threat, but that’s just me ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/193 "2007-12-09T21:23:18Z")
[QUOTE=jtgain] Sure, the two guns are cosmetically the same, but the fact that it is semi-auto only makes it a knock off.. [/QUOTE] No, not really. They are identical except for a rather simple trigger mechanism and a selector switch. 98% of the rest of the weapon is the same. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/194 "2007-12-09T21:42:34Z")
[QUOTE=42fish] Just out of curiousity, if your wife, daughter or mother were killed by someone and the killer ended up walking because the police didn’t read him his rights before getting a confession and/or failed to get a valid search warrant, would you no longer buy the old ‘Better a thousand guilty men go free than one innocent man go to jail’ saying? [/QUOTE] Just out of curiosity, why are female family members always presented in these scenarios? Are men impervious to bullets, or do men not get avenged? If it’s a father, a brother or a husband, do their loved ones say “That’s life”? Some of the victims in the VT shooting were men. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2007, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/195 "2007-12-09T22:55:03Z")
[QUOTE=Rilchiam] Just out of curiosity, why are female family members always presented in these scenarios? Are men impervious to bullets, or do men not get avenged? If it’s a father, a brother or a husband, do their loved ones say “That’s life”? Some of the victims in the VT shooting were men. [/QUOTE] I was just parallelling Polerius; ask him/her why. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/196 "2007-12-10T00:19:29Z")
[QUOTE=42fish] If your answer to these questions is no, please explain why you think the answer should be different for the 2nd Ammendment. [/QUOTE] I’m undecided about the value of allowing CC permits to everybody. But the 2nd Amendment is front-loaded with this phrase: “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State…” It doesn’t say: "Because mentally unstable teenagers might shoot at you with firearms in public places, “the right of the people…” yada yada. It doesn’t say: “Because some crack head might invade your home,”…“the right of the people to put automated firearms on their property, when they’re not at home, to shoot any person, shall not be infringed.” I like the idea of “the security of a free State” as well as the next guy. But I wonder if my Glock is going to make a big difference. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/197 "2007-12-10T01:46:35Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] I’m undecided about the value of allowing CC permits to everybody. [/QUOTE] How about allowing CCW for **NOBODY**?:eek: Because unless you’re a police officer (or retired [police officer](http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html)) that’s the situation here in Wisconsin and in Illinois. And while open carry is legal here in the Land of Cheese, it’s not very accepted by the general public, making it a pain in the ass for the poor, overtaxed citizen exercising his rights!!! Somehow the safety of cops, off duty cops, and retired cops (and that includes me, so I know what I’m bitching about) is more important than the safety of the average citizen!!!:mad: ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/198 "2007-12-10T02:28:20Z")
[QUOTE=Yllaria] Sorry, I have to pick at this nit. Do you have any information backing that up? I haven’t run across any such medieval practice. I remember a bible verse with the words “unto the seventh generation” but I don’t think it was crime related. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Corruption of Blood > Corruption of Blood was part of ancient English penalty for treason. It was usually part of a Bill of Attainder, which normally sentenced the accused to death. The corruption of blood would forbid the accused’s family from inhereting his property. Such bills and punishments were often inflicted upon Tories by colonial governments immediately following independence. [Link](http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html) ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/199 "2007-12-10T06:11:50Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Really? What was 7/7 then? Or the Glasgow Airport attack? [/QUOTE] Goodness me, if only I’d mentioned terrorism at some point in this dicussion. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028/200 "2007-12-10T13:31:47Z")
[QUOTE=pkbites] My wife and I were coordinators for [Tough Love](http://www.4troubledteens.com/toughlove.html), and heard it all. Some people are completely ignorant of the horrible things a kid can do (or grow up and do as an adult) regardless of how he/she was raised or who they were raised by. [/QUOTE] Amen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-fix-teenaged-gunman-shootings/429028.md?page=11)