# Let's Get Outside The Box In Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278 "2006-08-26T01:28:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/41 "2006-08-26T17:41:31Z")
[QUOTE=robertliguori] What are we trying to do here? What are our goals, and what are our constraints? [/QUOTE] The fact that we have over 3000 dead soldiers, tens of thousands of dead Iraqis, and scores of thousands of troops in country at the moment, and concerned citizens cannot readily answer these questions…is horrifying. That is to say, if our presence is so vital, why has this case not been made unequivicobly (sp?) by those behind this war before now? Shouldn’t we, as an intellectually curious and concerned and somewhat well informed citizenry be able to say, “the government wants to accomplish A, B and C and then we are getting out”. We still do not have defined goals or an exit strategy except “victory”. Jingo often? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/42 "2006-08-26T19:05:41Z")
[QUOTE=Hamlet] A majority of those three are being done by Iraqis and terrorists and not the US government. And none, as far as I know, are policies of the government. [/QUOTE] We certainly bomb them; we just have airplanes to drop them from. As far as torture is concerned, while it can’t be _proved_ that it’s policy, the Admin sure hasn’t hesitated to defend it, or play word games with the definition. As far as death squads go, we have the claim in at least one case that soldiers were ordered to kill all military age males; that’s pretty death squaddish. [QUOTE=newcrasher] Shouldn’t we, as an intellectually curious and concerned and somewhat well informed citizenry be able to say, “the government wants to accomplish A, B and C and then we are getting out”. [/QUOTE] We should, but Americans as a whole are intellectually _incurious_, _unconcerned_ and _poorly_ informed. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/43 "2006-08-26T19:13:57Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] We certainly bomb them; we just have airplanes to drop them from. [/QUOTE] Not that its likely to get through to you, but we are a bit less indiscriminate in our bombings than insurgents/terrorists using improvised roadside bombs…or suicide bombers with explosives strapped to their backs. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] As far as torture is concerned, while it can’t be proved that it’s policy, the Admin sure hasn’t hesitated to defend it, or play word games with the definition. [/QUOTE] Perception is everything. If the Iraqi’s perceive that torture is policy, then in their minds at least it is. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] As far as death squads go, we have the claim in at least one case that soldiers were ordered to kill all military age males; that’s pretty death squaddish. [/QUOTE] Right…there is the claim, but no proof. And this from soldiers accused of murder. Interesting that you would bring this up though. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] We should, but Americans as a whole are intellectually incurious, unconcerned and poorly informed. [/QUOTE] Otherwise they’d be in lock step with you, ehe? 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/44 "2006-08-26T19:19:34Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Also, the argument that ‘it will make the Iraqis/the Arabs hate us’ does not wash. They ALREADY hate us. You would have to argue that it would make them hate us SIGNIFICANTLY more than they already do, with specific reasons once again, to run that one. This represents the type of absurd oversimplification that I normally expect to see from small children and Republicans. Do most Arabs hate us? Yes, which is understandable since we’ve been ruling and abusing several Arab countries indirectly via murderous thugs for the last few decades. Do most Iraqis hate us? Yes, again understandable since we invaded their country under false premises and committed many acts of murder, rape, torture, and abuse, all the while thumping our chests in moral superiority. Does this mean we can abuse Iraqis (and presumably other Arabs) without considering the consequences? Obviously not. First, “most Arabs hate us” is not the same as “all Arabs hate us”; we still have plenty to lose. Second, there are degrees of hatred, and abuse of the type you suggest might push some from “simmering hatred” to “plant an IED hatred”. [QUOTE=Evil Captor] By their very nature, these ideas are risky and untried, so that can’t really be a criticism of them. If you want to argue with them, you have to argue with them on some logical ground of their specific effects on the country or the strategic situation. [/quote] I will do my best to comply with this. > [@](#): > > 1. Electronic collars (or ankle cuffs) for all Iraqi soldiers and civilians who are required by their profession to bear arms, collar which log the locations of their wearers. It’s no secret that a lot of the murders which plague Iraq are being done by soldiers and police. So I say log them all in via tracking equipment monitored by American troops. That way when 20 guys’ bodies with their heads blown off show up in Baghdad, all of them from Sumer Street, and the tracking equipment for half a dozen militia members show they were in Sumer Street for an hour when the murders were committed, you could haul them in and ask them questions. 1. Technically impossible. Any collar could be removed, one way or another. You’ve been reading too many Jack Vance novels. 2. Would give Iraqis a very strong motivation to not become soldiers or police. Indeed, this proposal would probably shrink the roles of the Iraqi police and army to zero. 3. Bad idea on general principles. Collars are for animals and sexual perverts, not normal people. This would be an assault on the human dignity of the Iraqis. > [@](#): > > 1. Along the same lines, turn the judiciary over to some other Muslim country, preferably a distant one, where the divisions between Sunni and Shia are much less important, so they can concentrate on who did what to who on March 14, 2006, rather than what happened at the Shrine of the Imam Mustafa in 431 AD. It would be best to hold the trials on some remote island not notable for its Arab population, to avoid importing trouble. Maybe Iceland? 1. What other Muslim country is that? Every Muslim is Shi’ite, Sunni, or some splinter group, so any country would have some form of prejudice. 2. The USA and most other modernized countries guarantee trial by “a jury of peers”, not a jury of non-peers from ten thousand miles away. There’s a reason for this. First, keeping trials local helps convince the populace that the system of justice is for their benefit. Second, jurors from halfway round the world can’t understand the social, economic, religious issues at work and thus are less fair than a local jury. > [@](#): > > 1. Make all the Iraqis go naked in public. Well, not completely naked. Suspender thongs and bras for the women, just thongs for the guys. Everyone, even the very old and the very young. It’s not what you think. I suspect that one of the big reasons that terrorism works so well in the middle east is that everybody runs around in sheets. Or burkhas if you prefer. It’s pretty durned easy to conceal an AK-47 or a lot of C4 under those things. Sneak attacks would be a LOT harder if you didn’t have those handy-dandy concealing robes to hide your weapons/bombs/what-have-you. Of course, people would have to carry their wallets, etc. I’d suggest small transparent purses (for both men and women) like dept. stores in the US use to humiliate their retail employees. 1. Public nudity or near-nudity is, again, for animals and sexual perverts rather than normal human beings. See response 3 to outside-of-box idea 1. 2. For religious reasons, this wouldn’t go over. If you tell Iraqis that their options are: A) Public humiliation by nudity. B) Death. They’ll most likely choose either B or C) Death that includes taking some American soldiers with me. Now you’re responded by saying that this is a long-term project. Still hopeless. A religion that’s lasted fifteen centuries doesn’t vanish overnight, or even over twenty years. Lastly you say that sexual frustration and repression are a major driver of violence, and outside-of-box idea 3 will supposedly fix this. Forget about it. First of all, there’s no evidence that sexual frustration does lead to violence. Many earlier societies had constant sexual repression and low rates of violence; many still do. Second, many societies that are drenched in sex are still quite violent, the USA currently is the obvious example. Lastly, an individual with regular access to sex and sexual content can still be sexually frustrated. Indeed, I think that’s rather more likely. My objections to outside-of-box idea 4 are quite similar to 3. > [@](#): > > Those are my suggestions, O solons of the Dope. I especially remonstrate with those who are conservatives to come up with reasons, not just why my plans wouldn’t succeed, but why they wouldn’t be a more abysmal failure than the current more mundane approach taken by the Bush “leadership.” I’m not a conservative so perhaps I’m out of line by answering this, but throughout the thread you’ve retreated to declaring your ideas better than Dubya’s current policy. We’re in no way required to take either Dubya’s policy or you four ouside-of-box ideas; that’s a classic false dichotomy. Furthermore, your ideas don’t address the current problems. American troops are torturing, raping, and murdering at will, though if we believe the media it’s just a few “bad eggs” who don’t represent the general attitude of the American military. None of your ideas would have any effect on those bad eggs. Now here’s my plan, which is definitely outside the box since no one who supports it would ever be allowed to participate in politics or the mainstream media at any level. Step 1: Withdraw the occupying American troops from Iraq. Step 2: Withdraw the occupying American troops from Saudi Arabia and other bases in the Muslim world. Step 3: Issue formal apologies for the past three generations of American violence against Muslim nations. Step 4: Implement an energy policy that weans America off foreign oil over the next five years. Step 5: Let the Muslim world solve their own Allah-damned problems. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/45 "2006-08-26T20:13:29Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Not that its likely to get through to you, but we are a bit less indiscriminate in our bombings than insurgents/terrorists using improvised roadside bombs…or suicide bombers with explosives strapped to their backs. [/quote] Assuming that is true, it’s also irrelevant. Dead is dead, whether or not it was offically on purpose or not. Anything we gain in precision we lose in sheer volume. Besides, unlike the resistance ( but **like** the terrorists ), we have no justification for killing in the first place. Besides, I seriously doubt that **all** of the various groups kill civilains on purpose; do you have proof of that ? [QUOTE=xtisme] Right…there is the claim, but no proof. And this from soldiers accused of murder. Interesting that you would bring this up though. [/quote] Not yet, but it’s not the first time we’ve been accused of that sort of killing. Nor can a bunch of torturers and conquerers make any claim to being moral people; I see no reason why we wouldn’t do such things. If we we the sort of people unwilling to kill innocent people for no good reason, we wouldn’t be in Iraq. [QUOTE=xtisme] Otherwise they’d be in lock step with you, ehe? 😛 [/QUOTE] No, with reality. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/46 "2006-08-26T20:18:14Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] 1. Public nudity or near-nudity is, again, for animals and sexual perverts rather than normal human beings. [/QUOTE] Incorrect. Plenty of cultures have and do take a much less prudish view of the human body than America, much less Iraq. That being said, the **Iraqi’s** culture is certainly not fond of public nudity, and would react as you suggest. Besides, even in more tolerant cultures, few people react anything but badly to being **forced** to go naked. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/47 "2006-08-26T20:23:09Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Assuming that is true, it’s also irrelevant. Dead is dead, whether or not it was offically on purpose or not. Anything we gain in precision we lose in sheer volume. Besides, unlike the resistance ( but like the terrorists ), we have no justification for killing in the first place. [/QUOTE] Maybe initially, but its been some time since we have bombed in Iraq in the same volume that the insurgents/terrorist groups use IED’s or other bombs. As for your second point we’ve been over that ground and I don’t feel like getting into it yet again here. You think the insurgents are justified while the US isn’t…I don’t see much justification across the board. To each his own. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Besides, I seriously doubt that all of the various groups kill civilains on purpose; do you have proof of that ? [/QUOTE] How could I, since we don’t know which groups have carried out which particular attacks. I’m sure there are insurgent groups out there who might not SPECIFICALLY target civilians…but I doubt there are any groups that haven’t killed civilians as colateral damage using their improvised devices. In addition, ALL the insurgent groups attempt to use the civilan population for cover and as shields when attacking US and coalition forces, so they are at least partly to blame for those deaths too…IMHO. Obviously on this YMMV. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Not yet, but it’s not the first time we’ve been accused of that sort of killing. Nor can a bunch of torturers and conquerers make any claim to being moral people; I see no reason why we wouldn’t do such things. If we we the sort of people unwilling to kill innocent people for no good reason, we wouldn’t be in Iraq. [/QUOTE] The story is complete bullshit, as I said in the thread on the subject. A rules of engagement change is rather hard to hide or cover up, as the entire batallion would know about it. It stretches credibility that EVERYONE in the batallion is in on it except these 4 schmucks accused of murder. However, if you want to keep thinking its plausable, be my guest. Anyway, we are drifting away from the OP (such as it is) here. -XT ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/48 "2006-08-26T22:38:16Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] All but the most hardened Bushiviks have pretty much admitted that Bush has screwed the pooch in Iraq. The standard way of conducing a military occupation has been a colossal failure, with the country fast headed for civil war and no bright prospects of anything but more dead soldiers at hand, it’s time to toss out the regulation playbook and start thinking outside the box. To that end, I am presenting several proposals that are well outside the standardized methods of conducting a military occupation and try something new that might, actually, like … work. [/QUOTE] Here’s my solution, that doesn’t involve pulling out (well.. not completely) turns some of the oil back on and gives us a die hard ally in the region. We support an independent Kurdistan and secure basing rights there. We pull out of the rest of Iraq and let the chips fall where they may… since they obviously don’t want us there anyways. The Kurdish people IMO are the only population in that country right now that have behaved and are organizing like a people who want a stable and democratic country of their own and after leaving them hanging for so long I think they deserve it at this point. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/49 "2006-08-26T22:51:11Z")
Supporting an independent Kurdistan would incite the neighbors. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/50 "2006-08-26T23:03:31Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] So, turn all of Iraq into a maximum security prison with a BDSM dress code? There’s out-o-the box, and then there’s batshit, gentlemen. [/QUOTE] Damn you! I freakin’ hate propelling liquids out my nose! 😃 As for the OP, seriosly, WTF? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/51 "2006-08-27T00:04:17Z")
[QUOTE=ITR champion] This represents the type of absurd oversimplification that I normally expect to see from small children and Republicans. Do most Arabs hate us? Yes, which is understandable since we’ve been ruling and abusing several Arab countries indirectly via murderous thugs for the last few decades. Do most Iraqis hate us? Yes, again understandable since we invaded their country under false premises and committed many acts of murder, rape, torture, and abuse, all the while thumping our chests in moral superiority. Does this mean we can abuse Iraqis (and presumably other Arabs) without considering the consequences? Obviously not. First, “most Arabs hate us” is not the same as “all Arabs hate us”; we still have plenty to lose. Second, there are degrees of hatred, and abuse of the type you suggest might push some from “simmering hatred” to “plant an IED hatred”. [/quote] Well, given that a certain percentage of Iraqis do hate us at the ‘IED’ level, and that we are unable to woo them back into the ‘simmering’ level, and that there are enough of them to make the current situation unworkable, does it really matter how many more get pushed into the ‘willing to plant bombs’ level, as long as the measures that pushed them that far also stop them from doing that violence? I mean, isn’t a group of 100 people who would kill all Americans if given the chance better than 99 people that just hate Americans, and 1 that has the chance to kill them? [QUOTE=ITR champion] 1. Technically impossible. Any collar could be removed, one way or another. You’ve been reading too many Jack Vance novels. 2. Would give Iraqis a very strong motivation to not become soldiers or police. Indeed, this proposal would probably shrink the roles of the Iraqi police and army to zero. 3. Bad idea on general principles. Collars are for animals and sexual perverts, not normal people. This would be an assault on the human dignity of the Iraqis. [/quote] I’m personally in agreement. I’d go for total disarmament with instant death for Iraqis caught with weapons before something this complicated. [QUOTE=ITR champion] 1. What other Muslim country is that? Every Muslim is Shi’ite, Sunni, or some splinter group, so any country would have some form of prejudice. 2. The USA and most other modernized countries guarantee trial by “a jury of peers”, not a jury of non-peers from ten thousand miles away. There’s a reason for this. First, keeping trials local helps convince the populace that the system of justice is for their benefit. Second, jurors from halfway round the world can’t understand the social, economic, religious issues at work and thus are less fair than a local jury. [/QUOTE] Again, what’s our goal here? Establish Truth, Justice, and the American Way? If so, then we need to be pushing as hard as we can to ensure that there is a local, functional justice system. If we’re just trying to establish a working Iraq, then we don’t need one. [QUOTE=ITR champion] 1. Public nudity or near-nudity is, again, for animals and sexual perverts rather than normal human beings. See response 3 to outside-of-box idea 1. 2. For religious reasons, this wouldn’t go over. If you tell Iraqis that their options are: A) Public humiliation by nudity. B) Death. They’ll most likely choose either B or C) Death that includes taking some American soldiers with me. [/QUOTE] It’s also not terribly effective; you’d need to destroy all forms of housing and vehicles and containers before you’d have removed everything which would let someone hide arms and explosives. [QUOTE=ITR champion] Now you’re responded by saying that this is a long-term project. Still hopeless. A religion that’s lasted fifteen centuries doesn’t vanish overnight, or even over twenty years. [/QUOTE] Y. You’d need 75-100 years and an effective genocide campaign at the very minimum, and that would only work within that region. [QUOTE=ITR champion] Lastly you say that sexual frustration and repression are a major driver of violence, and outside-of-box idea 3 will supposedly fix this. Forget about it. First of all, there’s no evidence that sexual frustration does lead to violence. Many earlier societies had constant sexual repression and low rates of violence; many still do. Second, many societies that are drenched in sex are still quite violent, the USA currently is the obvious example. Lastly, an individual with regular access to sex and sexual content can still be sexually frustrated. Indeed, I think that’s rather more likely. My objections to outside-of-box idea 4 are quite similar to 3. [/QUOTE] I’m not a statistician or an empire-builder, but I was under the impression that unmarried men were the ones most often behind systemic acts of violence such as the ones we’re facing in Iraq. I’d personally assume more of a self-selecting system in which obvious psychos have less luck attracting mates than any calming effect of regular nookie, but hey, if it could be shown to work and if we have no regard for such foolish, outmoded notions as civility and rights, then why not institute mandated coitus five times a day? [QUOTE=ITR champion] I’m not a conservative so perhaps I’m out of line by answering this, but throughout the thread you’ve retreated to declaring your ideas better than Dubya’s current policy. We’re in no way required to take either Dubya’s policy or you four ouside-of-box ideas; that’s a classic false dichotomy. Furthermore, your ideas don’t address the current problems. American troops are torturing, raping, and murdering at will, though if we believe the media it’s just a few “bad eggs” who don’t represent the general attitude of the American military. None of your ideas would have any effect on those bad eggs. [/QUOTE] I’d say that the problem here (which both Evil Captor and I have both alluded to) is that we have not decided what our goals are and what we are and aren’t willing to do to acheive these goals. Given this, thinking ‘outside the box’ is an exercise in futility; there is no defined box which we are inside. [QUOTE=ITR champion] Now here’s my plan, which is definitely outside the box since no one who supports it would ever be allowed to participate in politics or the mainstream media at any level. Step 1: Withdraw the occupying American troops from Iraq. Step 2: Withdraw the occupying American troops from Saudi Arabia and other bases in the Muslim world. Step 3: Issue formal apologies for the past three generations of American violence against Muslim nations. Step 4: Implement an energy policy that weans America off foreign oil over the next five years. Step 5: Let the Muslim world solve their own Allah-damned problems. [/QUOTE] This would, of course, be extraordinarily effective at ending U.S. involvement and expense in the region. My personal preference would be either for this sort of plan, if we assume that our national interests are a priority. ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/52 "2006-08-27T00:06:27Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] Supporting an independent Kurdistan would incite the neighbors. [/QUOTE] Neighbors… you mean like Iran? I don’t think we could possibly incite them more than we have other than full on attack. Turkey? They’ll grumble and make noise but if the US threw it’s full weight behind the Kurds that would be that. Besides, I think Turkey might possibly consider a stable Kurdistan to it’s south preferable to an unstable Iranian client state in a more or less perpetual state of civil war. Syria?.. see Iran. We’re already screwing up beyond belief but at least this way we have a new nation up and running, pumping oil and at least somewhat happy with us. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/53 "2006-08-27T15:47:10Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Well, IMHO the Shia are trying to accomplish dominating the entire nation to their own ends, and the Sunni are trying to accomplish not getting wiped out in light of their less than steller past and how they ran the country when they had the whip hand. I don’t believe either group wants partition…they both want the whole pie. The Kurds of course didn’t want to be part of it from the beginning, but due to the separate facts that northern Iraq (where the Kurds are predominent) has lots of oil fields and that Turkey would not be thrilled by a Kurdish home land (that would also be economically viable), it was never in the cards. The current fighting is all about the same cycle of violence that we saw decades ago in Ireland…revenge and reprisals in an endless cycle. We just happen to be in the middle of it right now…and we allowed a power vaccume to exist long enough initially to plant the seeds of what we are seeing today. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind and all that. -XT [/QUOTE] yes, that is the current problem. Got a solution? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/54 "2006-08-27T15:56:59Z")
[QUOTE=rock party] Put some sort of onstar tracking system on every car in the country…and put one on every car entering the country…put cameras on every telephone pole, streetlight, corners of tall buildings and track what everyone electronically. Put ecstasy in the water supply and pipe in new age music. Make “wake and bake” an everyday custom. [/QUOTE] You had me right up until “ecstasy in the water supply.” As I understand it, the Al-Qaeda types are already doping themselves to the gills prior to fights to give themselves an edge. Setting up extensive electronic monitoring, if it can be done, might cut down on the violence in Iraq. However, I see plonking away at electronic cameras at night becoming the next great sport for Iraqis if the cameras are just left sitting out in public. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/55 "2006-08-27T15:58:16Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] Well, other than gtf out and let it all go straight to Hell, I’ve got nothing in the way of alternatives to “stay the course”, which, we all know, isn’t working out so well. What a horrendous mess. [/QUOTE] Get out of the box, man. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/56 "2006-08-27T17:07:32Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Its pretty fucking horrifying. To be honest, I’d rather live with blowing people up, torture and killing than the kind of totalitarian state you are proposing. Maybe the Iraqi people would look at it differently, but I seriously doubt it. [/quote] You and I obviously have very different values. Killing and maiming people is the number one worst thing you can do to a person in my value system, and torture is number two. Enforced public near-nudity, espeically en masse, is WAAAAAAY down on the list. I would consider firing someone without cause to be MUCH worse, and that happens every day in the good old USA. > [@](#): > > You have no concept of what something like this would cost. It could run into trillions if you are serious about making the thing actually work the way you are envisioning it. You’re right, this is speculative thinking. We can look at the accounting on the ideas, once we have the ideas. The idea is to get the ideas and see if they’d work. > [@](#): > > Even if you could somehow get a unit price (for just the collars…gods, the vision of that makes me shudder) of, say, $500 per collar (and that has got to be overly optimistic for what you are asking), there are something like 28 million Iraqi’s. My back of the envelope calculation puts the price of that at roughly $1.45 trillion dollars. Thats just for the COLLARS. You’d also need some kind of wireless system, unless you are going to rely on the collars collecting all data and storing them onboard, the security software, testing, deployment…oh, lets say that all costs no more than an additional $500 billion (I’m being generous here)…whats a few more billion, ehe? Actually, [wireless GPS tracking collars already exist.](http://www.locationintelligence.net/articles/272.html) Interestingly, they are used as a cost-savings option (cheaper than prison, y’know.) > [@](#): > > As to my bald assertion meaning nothing, you are right. I AM a network engineer, but no one has ever contemplated something like what you are talking about here on such a scale, so anyone would be making assumptions and basically talking out of their ass without solid requirements. YOUR bald assertion that its possible however means even less than mine however. Unless you would like to tell me your credentials for security, wireless infrastructure, software/hardware design, or anything else that might be related to your proposal. 😛 See above. Not a bald assertion on my part any more. > [@](#): > > Tell me true…this whole thread is a sham, just a forum for you to bash on the US…isn’t it? 😛 Actually, I am a great fan of the US. That’s why I hate the Bush Admin. so much, because they have brought so much shame on the US by their despicable behavior. > [@](#): > > Do the Iraqi’s respect the current government? I’d say some do and some don’t. Would the current govenment last 15 minutes if the US cut and ran? Probably not. But if you push that government over the brink, I’d say you’d have an all out civil war in Iraq. If you think things are bad now, think through what it will be like when you have all the stuff you have now, but pushed up about an order of magnitude in violence…with some set piece battles between organized military and paramilitary groups thrown in for laughs. And perhaps other regional nations joining in the fun. I believe that’s where we’re headed under our current “leadership.” I’m trying to think of a way out. > [@](#): > > I think ‘extremely unpopular with Iraqis’ is a vast understatement on the effect of your program on them. In the US, forcing through such a plan would be ‘extremely unpopular’…in Iraq (and the greater ME at large) there would quite literally be an explosion. I really don’t think you are getting the magnitude of how bad it would be…because you think the US is a fanatical fundamentalist state, and IMHO this colors your perceptions. I’m not busting on you here, but seriously, the explosion in the ME of trying to force the population there to wear thongs at all time would not be comparable to what would happen here in the US…or in Europe for that matter. Here people would bitch, complain, protest in the street…there, blood would run in the streets, and the violence would make the current problems you are attempting to fix look like a picnic. I’m not exaggerating here. I have a lot of trouble believing people would be more upset by public nudity than by having their kids blown up … and we’ve blown up a LOT of Iraqis with our bombs in recent years. Memories like that last a lifetime, donchaknow. Saying enforced public nudity, principally of Iraqi men, would be worse than that just doesn’t make any kind of sense to me. Frankly, a creature who would rather have his kids blown up than walk around in a Speedo doesnt really seem human to me. Does such a creature seem human to you? In short, I’m not buying it. I agree, it would bug the very hung-up Iraqis one whole hell of a lot more than it would bug comparitively healthy-minded Americans or Europeans. That much we agree on. But once again, it represents a solution to all these surprise attacks we’ve been having. My idea is to reduce American casualties, and I’m surprised you’re so much more concerned with protecting Iraqi sensibilities than preserving American lives. Like I said, I’m willing to hear actual solutions to the problem. > [@](#): > > I think a combination of poverty, religious repression and perhaps sexual repression all are factors in the root causes of the problems there. To that extent I’m willing to agree with you. I don’t believe you could fix these problems by fiat in the manner you suggest. I DO think that the solution lies in the long term though…and I think that the seeds of that solution are already planted and growing. I look at Iran and I think the recent crack downs indicate that those in power ALSO see the seeds growing and are trying to stamp them out. But to paraphrase the Princess in Star Wars, the tighter you close your hands the more folks will slip through your fingers. Once again, I would LIKE it if the cultures of the Middle East magically migrated toward more humane values, but it seems like too neat a solution, and for that reason I distrust it. Sometimes the easy answer is the right answer, but most of the time … not. This sounds like more neocon hashish. I do not believe I will have a toke, thank you very much. [quote] Its not that your solutions can’t work (they obviously can’t), its that they show a lack of understanding of the underlieing problems. Its the mallot approach to solving problems…and the same general problem with Bush, who tried to do things in the same way. Sure, think outside the box, be wild and crazy…but you first need to really understand enough so that your solutions aren’t completely impossible AND irrational (rationality being defined by your target audience, not some absolute). > [@](#): > > You really have a problem with lateral thinking. A Po doesn’t necessarily represent a solution, but a way to find one. > > -XT ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/57 "2006-08-27T17:18:14Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] How 'bout we just depose Bush, dissolve the Iraqi government, reinstate a formal occupation, and make Bush the new Administrator of Iraq. [/QUOTE] Replacing one tinhorn strongman halfwit (Saddam) with another (Bush) does not strike me as an improvement … hardly worthy of the lives lost, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/58 "2006-08-27T17:34:57Z")
[QUOTE=Paul in Saudi] I still like my plan. Give every Iraq a monthly cash payout for oil royalties. it is crazy but it just might work. [/QUOTE] I thought the oil revenues weren’t coming through due to all the sabotage and terrorism and such. If they are, this strikes me as a good plan for cutting down on the cash-motivated violence, which I understand is behind a lot of the kidnapping of Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/59 "2006-08-27T17:44:48Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Replacing one tinhorn strongman halfwit (Saddam) with another (Bush) does not strike me as an improvement … hardly worthy of the lives lost, eh? [/QUOTE] True, but would you rather have Bush fuck up the US and Iraq or just Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278/60 "2006-08-27T17:45:13Z")
[QUOTE=robertliguori] What are we trying to do here? What are our goals, and what are our constraints? I assume, based on the suggestions already offered, that civil liberties are not a restraint on our actions. [/quote] My goals are, in order of importance: 1. to get as many of our troops home safe and sound as is humanly possible under the circumstances 2. to do so in a way that leaves the Iraqi people as free as possible, and as capable of leading decent (i.e., sufficient food, clothing and shelter) a life as possible, under whatever religion or system of government suits them, with as many civil liberties as they are capable of handling. (And when I say “Iraqi people” I mean Iraqi women, too.) 3. and to leave the US in as strong a strategic position as possible, consistent with the other goals. > [@](#): > > Let us assume that our endgame is an Iraq filled with people that, if not in love with the U.S., at least do not hate it, and are willing to get along in peace with their neighbors. > > Well, let’s go the sci-fi route: mandatory sterilization for all Iraqis You lost me right here. Inconsistent with goal number 2. Your plans seem to imply an unstated goal of punishing the Iraqi people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-outside-the-box-in-iraq/370278.md?page=4)