# Let's get something straight: Oil drilling does NOTHING for "energy independence" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369 "2008-10-03T20:52:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/21 "2008-10-03T21:54:32Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > The way to end dependence on foreign oil is to use less oil. Conservation is strangely unpopular, though. You’re absolutely right. I forgot to mention conservation, which can beat the crap out of any form of increased power generation in terms of results. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/22 "2008-10-03T21:54:40Z")
Drilling also provides more jobs up and down the line (high school education to MBA types) and more tax money. Additionally, more oil to the market means more supply, all else being equal, lower prices. It’s really the combination of increasing the supply and conservation which will drive down prices and increase independence (assuming using other resources). ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/23 "2008-10-03T21:56:56Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Yes, you’re right, and that’s more or less what I meant…and basically we have “conservatives” demanding something akin to socialism, and it makes me giggle. Conservatives are supposedly all anti-big-government and YOYO when it suits their needs, but when the shit hits the fan, they go crying for Daddy. Heh. Just got “YOYO.” Never heard that acronym before. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/24 "2008-10-03T21:57:32Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > ‘We’ seem to actually derive more than a few benefits out of the deal actually… Oh, sure. I’m not disputing that - although I think the time line is too long and the negatives outweigh the benefits. But we derive benefits, sure. We’re disputing that energy independence is one of them, as claimed by Ms. Palin last night. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/25 "2008-10-03T22:02:15Z")
> [@mazinger\_z](#): > > Drilling also provides more jobs up and down the line (high school education to MBA types) and more tax money. That’s an unimaginative view. We could just as easily provide as many—or more—jobs by putting people to work in setting up wind farm companies, installing windmills, solar arrays, and the power grid infrastructure to support them, researching new materials for solar cells, perfecting safe pebble-bed reactor designs, launching design and engineering initiatives to create more fuel-efficient devices across the board, from cars to heating systems … > [@](#): > > Additionally, more oil to the market means more supply, all else being equal, lower prices. But it’s a pathetic trickle to add to the ocean of oil, and ultimately unsustainable (I mean that in the temporal sense, not the eco sense) in the long term. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/26 "2008-10-03T22:14:32Z")
[QUOTE=toadspittle] That’s an unimaginative view. We could just as easily provide as many—or more—jobs by putting people to work in setting up wind farm companies, installing windmills, solar arrays, and the power grid infrastructure to support them, researching new materials for solar cells, perfecting safe pebble-bed reactor designs, launching design and engineering initiatives to create more fuel-efficient devices across the board, from cars to heating systems … [/QUOTE] You should form a company and do so then, if it’s profitable. Sounds like a wonderful investment opportunity. Do you think, however, that there are only a fixed number of jobs that can be created at any given time? Is there some kind of limit? You make it sound like an either or proposition…as if, by creating new jobs by drilling (and getting those tax revenues) we can’t do all those other things too… Why exactly? > [@](#): > > But it’s a pathetic trickle to add to the ocean of oil, and ultimately unsustainable (I mean that in the temporal sense, not the eco sense) in the long term. Um…I’ve seen estimates we could add several million barrels a day, depending on how much oil is out there and how accessible it is (no one really knows). Currently there is, IIRC, something like 3-4 million barrels of slack in the system. Adding even a million more barrels a day would help the over all oil market. As to sustainability…well, that’s true enough in the long term. But we are talking a few decades of production at least before the oil in these new fields runs out…in theory at least. Again, I don’t think anyone is saying that by drilling we would magically become energy independent. If they ARE saying that they are wrong. However, if they are saying that by opening up those fields to exploitation we would derive benefits…well, I think that goes without saying there. TODAY we get billions of dollars in tax revenue from oil companies who exploit national resources. That’s billions of dollars that could, at least in theory, be used to look into alternatives. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/27 "2008-10-03T22:18:35Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > ‘We’ charge those companies for the rights to use that land. Would you like to look up how much it costs an oil company to lease an acre of land from the federal government for one year? Oil leases might as well be given away. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/28 "2008-10-03T22:24:14Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Um…I’ve seen estimates we could add several million barrels a day, depending on how much oil is out there and how accessible it is (no one really knows). Currently there is, IIRC, something like 3-4 million barrels of slack in the system. Adding even a million more barrels a day would help the over all oil market. And once again, we wouldn’t get even a drop of oil until _2018_. Drilling is not going to help anything for a long time. Conservation and alternate sources can be implemented right damned _now_. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/29 "2008-10-03T22:28:24Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Would you like to look up how much it costs an oil company to lease an acre of land from the federal government for one year? Oil leases might as well be given away. [/QUOTE] And the taxes? [QUOTE=Captain Carrot] And once again, we wouldn’t get even a drop of oil until 2018. Drilling is not going to help anything for a long time. Conservation and alternate sources can be implemented right damned now. [/QUOTE] So what? Even if I accept your estimate here that none of the offshore or ANWR fields could be brought on stream until 2018 (:dubious:), there would still be the jobs that would be generated by exploration and ramping up…not to mention what the prospect of those fields would do for the oil commodities market in the short and medium term. The oil doesn’t have to flow to have an impact on the market, ehe? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/30 "2008-10-03T22:31:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As has been said, repeatedly, it won’t help because the oil won’t necessarily GO here. It’ll go to the highest bidder. It makes us no more independent than if we were buying it from anywhere else. > > Unless, of course we refuse to let it be sold out of the country; good luck getting the pro-drilling crowd to agree with **that**. This is about profit, not independence. What percentage of domestically produced oil do we ship overseas? ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/31 "2008-10-03T22:36:22Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > What percentage of domestically produced oil do we ship overseas? If the figure is that we use 25% of the world’s oil is correct, then it would be 75%. That’s a simplistic answer, but essentially correct. Just visualize it like this - all the oil producers of the world (except for the ones with nationalized oil industries) are putting their oil into a big bucket, and then everybody is buying out of the same bucket. We’re putting in a tiny amount and taking out about 8 times as much as we put in. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/32 "2008-10-03T22:37:37Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > “We” aren’t drilling anywhere, is the OP’s point. “We”, as in, the American people, buy our oil (and gas) from oil companies. “We”, as in the American government, don’t own oil companies (well, directly, anyhow) and “we” have no business, in our current paradigm, telling them where they can and can’t sell the oil they pump from “our” sources. > > “We” will get screwed when “They” (the oil companies) sell to the highest bidder (as is totally their right, of course), not to Americans. “Our” oil might well end up being sold to Canada or France or China; there’s nothing keeping it here just because it came from here. How does selling our oil to other people make us energy independent? Well, there’s these things called transportation costs that might help keep it here. Also, back in the day when I owned a farm I used to rent out my fields to a farmer. We had this thing you see, it was called a “contract.” This contract told the farmer could and couldn’t do as he farmed my fields. It outlined our obligations to each other. I had horses. Those horses needed hay. So, in that contract it was written that I had the right to buy all the hay I wanted for my own use at a predetermined price. It was a pretty clever instrument this “contract.” It’s too bad they don’t have something like that for people leasing land to drill oil. Ya know, an “oil lease” or something. Real shame there’s nothing like that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/33 "2008-10-03T22:38:33Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > And the taxes? Irrelevant; all energy companies pay taxes, so the federal government gets their cut whether money is invested in oil or alternative energy. We will be better off in the long run to kick our oil addiction as soon as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/34 "2008-10-03T22:38:39Z")
> [@A\_shameful\_cracka](#): > > If the figure is that we use 25% of the world’s oil is correct, then it would be 75%. That’s a simplistic answer, but essentially correct. Just visualize it like this - all the oil producers of the world (except for the ones with nationalized oil industries) are putting their oil into a big bucket, and then everybody is buying out of the same bucket. We’re putting in a tiny amount and taking out about 8 times as much as we put in. Where do they keep this bucket? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/35 "2008-10-03T22:40:14Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > It’s too bad they don’t have something like that for people leasing land to drill oil. Ya know, an “oil lease” or something. > > Real shame there’s nothing like that. You really haven’t a clue what an oil lease is, do you… ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/36 "2008-10-03T22:49:52Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You really haven’t a clue what an oil lease is, do you… No. Not really. You think it might be similar to a gas lease? I have one of those between myself and Chesapeake energy for some land I have a share in in Maryland. ---
**Author:** ![A\_shameful\_cracka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@A\_shameful\_cracka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_shameful_cracka)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/37 "2008-10-03T22:53:03Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Where do they keep this bucket? It’s the global commodities market. You know, the folks who say “Oil is $X a barrel”. The price is not set by the individual oil companies, and the oil companies don’t pick who they sell to. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/38 "2008-10-03T23:02:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You really haven’t a clue what an oil lease is, do you… Actually, I do. It says that it’s an “Oil and Gas Lease.” Funny. There’s only gas there. Anyhow, it says here under “Bonus Consideration” that I can reserve an oil and gas royalty payment or a production payment in kind. I wonder what that means? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/39 "2008-10-03T23:03:42Z")
It would be helpful for those of us attempting to follow along at home, if there were more information and less sarcasm in this thread. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369/40 "2008-10-03T23:07:02Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > What percentage of domestically produced oil do we ship overseas? They don’t want it. Used to be, oil was oil, it could all be refined into something saleable. When I was a boy, in the place that used to be Texas, you couldn’t drive far without seeing at least one operating pump, out in a field somewhere, sucking up oil. And this was around Waco, where there wasn’t that much, not like in West Texas or Oklahoma. The oil is still there, and the wells. The wells are capped, because nobody wants the kind of oil we got. Its actually cheaper to import light sweet crude from overseas, ship it here, and refine it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-get-something-straight-oil-drilling-does-nothing-for-energy-independence/466369.md?page=3)