# LET'S GO, FREAK!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2000, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415 "2000-07-13T07:26:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2000, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/21 "2000-07-15T02:37:59Z")
Coldfire rears his ugly head under the guise of an “economist.” > [@](#): > > Economic strength? > > Please. The United States are STILL the greatest debtor to the IMF and the World Bank. Iteresting that we have NO outstanding loans to the IMF, straight from [http://www.imf.com](http://www.imf.com), and we have NO loans from the World Bank ([www.worldbank.org](http://www.worldbank.org)). In comparison, the Russian Federation has a full 9.84 billion on loan from the IMF and another .7 billion from the World Bank. > [@](#): > > Of course, with the insanely high dollar (Americans seem to think that’s ALWAYS a good thing) of the mid 80’s, American products were impossible to afford in Europe. Your average Ford Taurus Wagon would be yours in 1986 for todays dollar equivalent of USD 40,000 in the Netherlands. Good economic policy? I think not. [quote] So no-one’s buying American products except Americans, [quote] Yeah, whatever. That is why trade accounts for precisely a full 19.9% of American GDP([www.worldbank.org](http://www.worldbank.org)). > [@](#): > > UncleBeer, you could also say that the reason we were doing so badly during that time was because of the Vietnam war. Arccording to your ECU pet theories, should not the Vietnam War BOOSTED the economy? Interesting that the Vietnam War ended in 1975, a year before Carter took office, and Vietnamization began way back in the beginning of 1970. Again, I implore you to go back to ECU again, start over, and maybe your educational experience will not be so crappy this time. P.S. When are you gonna get me those WW II facts, after I have blown your misconceptions regarding many things (Japanese working more hours/year than Americans) to bits and illustrated the pitfalls of “self education.” ---
**Author:** ![FreakFreely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@FreakFreely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreakFreely)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2000, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/22 "2000-07-15T03:29:03Z")
Sneevil- > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > if it was a WISE thing to do to lauch a multi billion dollar space warfare program, purely funded by international loans, > > Answer: Yes. This resulted in breaking the back of the Soviet Union. What the freak?! Can you explain this to me? The space warfare program didn’t do anything for anyone. And the Soviet Union certainly didn’t need any help breaking their back. > [@](#): > > The bulk U.S. spending is on entitlements, and welfare or the transferrance of wealth, which should warm your little euro-socialist heart. Well, I was gonna say something about this. But, I decided it would be easier to just cut’n’paste. > [@](#): > > Is this fact, or opinion? Can you support this? ---
**Author:** ![johnson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@johnson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnson)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2000, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/23 "2000-07-15T04:38:19Z")
[Here’s](http://www.census.gov/prod/99pubs/99statab/sec10.pdf) some numbers (tables 543 and 546) showing that 59.1% of the federal budget was payments to individuals (mostly social security, some welfare and health) in 1998. Also note that defense spending was 16.2% of the budget in 1998. Although it was 26.7% in 1985, that’s hardly indicative that “what little tax income there is is wholly spent on shiny useless rockets.” ---
**Author:** ![FreakFreely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@FreakFreely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreakFreely)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2000, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/24 "2000-07-15T04:40:20Z")
> [@](#): > > (Japanese working more hours/year than Americans) to bits and illustrated the pitfalls of “self education.” Okay, I was just gonna let it slide. But if you insist… > [@](#): > > Japanese on average work 1879 hours per year (1998),[http://www.stat.go.jp/](http://www.stat.go.jp/) > While Americans work an average of 2028 hours > (1993),[http://stats.bls.gov/](http://stats.bls.gov/) > About 8% more than Japan In the words of Mark Twain “There’s lies, damn lies, and then there’s statistics.” Y’see, these statistics don’t really _say anything_. At first glance, it’s pretty solid. But after you look at it for a few minutes, it starts to fall apart. Is that per capita or per worker? Because more women work in America than in Japan. Besides, there’s an eight year difference in-between these two statistics. And your claim that more hours are worked by Americans than any other country is just ludicrous. What about the sweatshops in India? > [@](#): > > When are you gonna get me those WW II facts You want me to cut and paste an entire freakin’ history book? That’s what it would take to prove such a wide sweeping theory. It’s as simple as this, most of Europe was squashed in the second world war. America spent quite a bit of money during that war, but we got through completely unscathed (unless you count pearl harbor). Whereas most of Europe was totaled. So they had to buy everything from us. In the end, we made much more money off of the war than we lost. The difference between this theory and the one for Vietnam is that no one else lost nearly so much money in that war. And we pumped even more money into that war than air into a Pink Floyd pig. > [@](#): > > …I have blown… Can’t argue with that! ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2000, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/25 "2000-07-15T05:59:47Z")
> [@](#): > > In the words of Mark Twain “There’s lies, damn lies, and then there’s statistics.” The person you are misquoting here is Benjamin Disraeli. > [@](#): > > It’s as simple as this, most of Europe was squashed in the second world war. America spent quite a bit of money during that war, but we got through completely unscathed (unless you count pearl harbor). Whereas most of Europe was totaled. So they had to buy everything from us. In the end, we made much more money off of the war than we lost. Many countries made it through unscathed. Many countries recovered quite nicely, many others didn’t. Obviously, not being decimated in a long and bloody war was a factor that worked in our benefit. However, it was far from the only factor. Look at East Germany versus West Germany. Both suffered approximately as much from the war. The country with a relatively free economy did far better economically than the one without. The US had an advantage over both of them due to surviving the war mostly intact, which I doubt anyone can seriously dispute. What we are disputing is whether this played the leading role, or whether economic policy was a more dominant factor. Personally, I’m leaning toward the second. Now on to the trickier issue of Reagan. First off, I’ll point out that the vast majority of US debt is owed to Americans, in the form of treasury bonds (although this is a vague recollection from a Marilyn Vos Savant column years ago). We aren’t exactly in debt to every little country the world over. Next, the role of the US military build-up under Reagan clearly must have affected the Soviet Union, which did soon afterwards fall apart. The exact role it played and the issue of whether or not it was worth the cost are certainly up to debate, and will likely never be settled for certain. Personally, I take the view that more was spent on entitlements and the military then should have been under Reagan. The massive debt that was accumulated over those years (mostly with the Democrats controlling Congress, I must point out) slowed down a sluggish and badly distributed economic recovery. As to his quote about our country, I read it as a failed attempt to succinctly say something along the lines of “we should never forget that our country is blessed with an incredible abundance of natural resources.” So it came out a bit redundant sounding. I’m sure every president has uttered a few quotes that didn’t quite go over the way they were supposed to. To close I’ll point out that a few of you are being so condescending towards each other, I’m actually amused by it. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2000, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/26 "2000-07-15T07:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > In the words of Mark Twain “There’s lies, damn lies, and then there’s statistics.” > > Y’see, these statistics don’t really say anything. At first glance, it’s pretty solid. But after you look at it for a few minutes, it starts to fall apart. > > Is that per capita or per worker? Because more women work in America than in Japan. Besides, there’s an eight year difference in-between these two statistics. > > And your claim that more hours are worked by Americans than any other country is just ludicrous. What about the sweatshops in India? Okay, admitedly, they are not the same years, but the difference is not eight years, it is five, I can see ECU is more of a liberal arts college than a math and science oriented one. So I went back, looked it up, and the difference is more astounding with an average 2341 hours per week for workers in the U.S. in 1998. That per capita argument? Let us go ahead and run the numbers. For 1998, there was an average workforce of 131.7 million out of a population of 270.3 million meaning 138.6 million non-workers. Using a weighted average, you get 1140.6 hours/year/capita. Let’s go ahead and do the same thing for Japan. Japan has a work force of 66.5 million of 125.9 million. Running the numbers, a 992.48 hours/anum/capita. This time, an astounding 14.9% difference. You should not have asked if you wished to maintain your claim that Americans are lazy asses. Now you bring up a claim regarding India? Why do not you dig up the statistics on this one, I have already spent way to much time just finding reliable stats, SO YOU BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS FOR ONCE, instead of relying on me to prove that they are wrong and to refute them. Go along now, little one with a BA from ECU. If you really wanted to prove your little pet theory regarding WW II, there are a few numerical indicators that you could look for. First and foremost, trade as a percentage of GDP should increase markedly. After that, there should be a major increase in international loans to other countries ravaged by the war. Look for the level of payback on these loans to assure that we actually profited from the war. Go ahead, find the stats, make the argument. If you cannot find these, I would like to remind you of the dozens of other countries not affected by the war such as those of Sub-Saharran Africa, South America and so forth. I really hope that your liberal arts background from ECU does not hold you back here. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2000, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/27 "2000-07-16T22:39:48Z")
FreakFreely, I really hope that you finally respond to this thread at some time. I have seen you around the SDMB recently and you have not responded; however, your copious and plentiful previous replies lead me to believe that you really do care about this thread, socialism, what you view as the oppression of the underclass, etc. This is certainly one of the most challenging and interesting threads that I have engaged in, and I would hate for it to fizzle out without both of us reaching some sort of sincere understanding of economics, how it affects the people in that economic system, etc. Coldfire, I would love it if you also engaged in this self-discovery program through contributing your understanding of economics and the answer to interesting riddles such as how we remain the largest debtor in the world to the IMF and WorldBank, when according to both of these respective organizations, we have no loans currently owed to either. ``` Sincerely, Elliot Dickerson, e.g. threemae ``` ---
**Author:** ![FreakFreely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@FreakFreely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreakFreely)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2000, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/28 "2000-07-16T22:49:59Z")
Be patient. I’m just taking a short hiatus from this argument. It was starting to get to me, and I needed a break. But don’t worry, I will return. I never give up. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2000, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/29 "2000-07-16T23:08:48Z")
Good to hear, Freak. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2000, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/30 "2000-07-16T23:47:13Z")
In defense of Threemae. Americans work more hours than workers in any other industrialized country. Now of course workers in sweatshops work more hours, however most countries that contain sweatshops are not exclusively that. They have other industries, other workers. So yes sweatshop workers tend to work more, but we also have sweatshops here in America. Why is america so advanced? We are underworked and underpaid. ---
**Author:** ![FreakFreely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@FreakFreely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreakFreely)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2000, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/31 "2000-07-16T23:58:57Z")
Hey oldscratch, you wanna be my deputy? Keep the argument going while I take a break? It would be most appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/32 "2000-07-17T00:22:27Z")
I’d love to but, and this is a real big but… I think that most of the people posting in this thread are being wankers. I disagee with you about as much as I disagree with threemae and snivel. Now don’t get me wrong Freak, you have pretty good ideas most of the time. But, everyone in this thread is putting forth ideas that are just FUCKED beyond belief. I don’t really feel like putting in the time and/or effort in putting you all straight. The one thing I will point out is that Carter proposed several billion more in millitary spending than Regan was ever able to get. ---
**Author:** ![FreakFreely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@FreakFreely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreakFreely)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/33 "2000-07-17T00:36:09Z")
> [@](#): > > I think that most of the people posting in this thread are being wankers. I agree. That’s why I wanted to stop for awhile before I became even more wanker-like. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/34 "2000-07-17T00:40:18Z")
Don’t worry freak. You couldn’t be any more of a wanker if you tried. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/35 "2000-07-17T08:43:39Z")
Not to interupt the wanker accusations here, but just what precisely is a wanker? Conan O’Brien of Sam Donaldson, “You Earthlings confuse me.” He he. [giggling softly] ---
**Author:** ![FreakFreely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@FreakFreely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreakFreely)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2000, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/36 "2000-07-17T16:38:02Z")
Threemae, I wouldn’t want to corrupt your innocent mind. And yeah, earthlings confuse the hell out of me too. ---
**Author:** ![Feynn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@Feynn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Feynn)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/37 "2000-07-18T06:00:34Z")
Takin a break are you Freak? Why don’t we just race our dogsleds while we compose our thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/38 "2000-07-18T18:34:27Z")
Speaking of sweden. (I thought I’d put this here since the other thread has sunk). The Wall street journal had a good article on it in Monday’s edition. I recomend everyone who is interested go and read it. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2000, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/39 "2000-07-18T18:48:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Not to interupt the wanker accusations here, but just what precisely is a wanker? Ahem, a wanker is one who engages in recreational sex with Rosie Palm and her five sisters. ---
**Author:** ![FreakFreely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/48db29/32.png) [@FreakFreely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FreakFreely)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2000, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415/40 "2000-07-19T14:08:15Z")
Okay threemae, if you want to continue this, I’ve got a thread going in Great Debates, [“What I’m Hoping For”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=31321). See you there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-freak/25415.md?page=1)