# Let's go over the fiscal cliff **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 4, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874 "2012-11-04T19:37:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/21 "2012-11-08T16:21:59Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The fiscal cliff is a self-inflicted wound, but it may also be the only realistic opportunity to do what must be done: reduce long-term healthcare spending; cut defense spending; and get ourselves to a sustainable tax policy that doesn’t throw us back into recession. > > I doubt Congress can accomplish anything on any of those fronts even in the face of the fiscal cliff, but I’m absolutely certain that Congress won’t accomplish them in any other circumstances. This is pretty much where I’m at as well. We need to look at some tax increases as well, but tax increases are only going to get us so far. There is no ‘I’ll take a chainsaw to the Pentagon’ or ‘Let’s just raise taxes on “The Rich”’ type quick fixes here. We are going to need to raise taxes across the board, including on the dreaded capital gains, but we are also going to need to look at spending cuts (and to more than The Pentagon™). No one is going to like it…and both parties are going to resist their sacred cows getting used for hamburger. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/22 "2012-11-08T16:33:09Z")
Our best hope is they just kick the can down the road. As long as they don’t do something stupid, like raising taxes and cutting spending, the economy will have recovered within the next two years and the deficit will take care of itself. Given the partisan deadlock, I think it’s a reasonably likely alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/23 "2012-11-08T16:43:57Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > .. the economy will have recovered within the next two years and the deficit will take care of itself. Total Medicare spending is projected at $7.7 trillion for 2012-2022. That’s $300 billion more annually than we’re spending now, and that’s only one of three healthcare time-bombs (the others being Medicaid and VA health coverage). And it only gets worse for 2022-2032. Much worse. We can’t grow our way out of that. To cover the Medicare increases alone, we’d need to increase income tax revenue by 25%. That just ain’t gonna happen. Obamacare’s cost controls are a start, but they’re only a start. There’s a lot more than we need to do. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/24 "2012-11-08T16:57:26Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > As long as they don’t do something stupid, like raising taxes and cutting spending, the economy will have recovered within the next two years and the deficit will take care of itself. There was a deficit before the economy tanked. The economy made it much worse, and so did the wars and the tax cuts, and those are not going to be fully reversed). You’re right that the worst-case scenario is the cuts to government spending (which are not immediately necessary) end up hurting the economy and things go back to square one. ---
**Author:** ![Random55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Random55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random55)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/25 "2012-11-08T17:09:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Pretend you could cut the entire DOD budget…that still wouldn’t bring our deficit spending back into line. Better keep that chainsaw handy, and hope you are willing to take it to other places than the Pentagon… More than willing. I just mentioned the pentagon, because many “deficit hawks” want to increase defense spending. I figure there’s probably a few hundred billion in bureaucracy and waste that could be eliminated, and still leave us with the most powerful defense on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/26 "2012-11-08T17:17:45Z")
> [@XT](#): > > There is no ‘I’ll take a chainsaw to the Pentagon’ or ‘Let’s just raise taxes on “The Rich”’ type quick fixes here. We are going to need to raise taxes across the board, including on the dreaded capital gains, but we are also going to need to look at spending cuts (and to more than The Pentagon™). I don’t think there are any Democrats who have taken spending cuts off the table, but most Republicans have taken a pledge against any tax rate increases. Who needs more attitude adjustment here? ---
**Author:** ![Random55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Random55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random55)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/27 "2012-11-08T17:28:26Z")
I’ve seen what happens with tax increases. The baseline just increases. I’d like to see for once, real cuts leading the way. After real cuts have been made, I’m willing to visit tax increases. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/28 "2012-11-08T17:38:23Z")
Then you shall have no spending cuts, and we go over the cliff. Ho do you like them apples? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/29 "2012-11-08T17:53:52Z")
> [@Random55](#): > > I’ve seen what happens with tax increases. The baseline just increases. I’d like to see for once, real cuts leading the way. After real cuts have been made, I’m willing to visit tax increases. Actually, nondefense discretionary spending has been quite stable as a proportion of GDP. With the exception of blips for recessions and temporary spending on things like war and stimulus, the growing debt is basically a taxes, defense, and entitlement problem. In other words, it’s not really that Congress is actively deciding to spend more. It is more that Congress cut taxes while failing to reform medical spending. So I think you’re wrong to think of taxes as increasing a spending baseline. ---
**Author:** ![Random55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Random55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random55)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/30 "2012-11-08T17:55:12Z")
Every tax increase has been sold, promising spending cuts that somehow never materialized. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/31 "2012-11-08T17:56:39Z")
> [@Random55](#): > > Every tax increase has been sold, promising spending cuts that somehow never materialized. So if the tax rate increases were contingent upon concrete spending cuts, would you go along with it? ---
**Author:** ![Random55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Random55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random55)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/32 "2012-11-08T18:09:54Z")
As long as the spending cuts come first. And I’m not talking about just decreasing the rate of increase. We also need a real effort to seek out waste and fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/33 "2012-11-08T18:17:50Z")
> [@Random55](#): > > As long as the spending cuts come first. How about if spending cuts are are simultaneous with tax rate increases? You don’t seem to trust Congress to cut spending later in return for tax increases today; why should I trust Congress to increase tax rates later in return for spending cuts today? ---
**Author:** ![Random55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Random55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random55)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/34 "2012-11-08T19:27:07Z")
Because it’s your turn. I waited for the spending cuts Reagan was promised after he agreed to raise taxes. they never happened, intead spending increased causing deficits. Same with the Bush tax cuts. Your turn to have faith. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/35 "2012-11-08T19:28:45Z")
> [@Random55](#): > > Because it’s your turn. Everyone in politics thinks it’s their turn to be in charge and the other guy has to do what they want. That’s more or less why there is a fiscal cliff: everybody wants someone else to take the first step toward the middle. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/36 "2012-11-08T19:43:54Z")
> [@Random55](#): > > I waited for the spending cuts Reagan was promised after he agreed to raise taxes. OK, we’ll cut spending as soon as the prosperity trickles down from the Bush tax cuts. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/37 "2012-11-08T19:48:03Z")
> [@Random55](#): > > Because it’s your turn. I waited for the spending cuts Reagan was promised after he agreed to raise taxes. they never happened, intead spending increased causing deficits. Same with the Bush tax cuts. > Your turn to have faith. I have all the faith in the world. I guarantee that if the GOP doesn’t strike a deal taxes will go up. In fact, they’ll go up on Jan 1, 2013. ---
**Author:** ![Random55](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Random55](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random55)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/38 "2012-11-08T19:49:09Z")
Any prosperity was spent. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/39 "2012-11-08T19:53:44Z")
Not by the government it wasn’t. By some bizarre coincidence the tax cuts coincided with bigger government deficits, and that’s even before you include the two wars that started a couple of years later. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874/40 "2012-11-08T20:03:12Z")
> [@Random55](#): > > Any prosperity was spent. What does that mean? Ten years after the wealthy got their windfall, wages for the rest of us are still stagnant. There was no prosperity to spend. Now it’s your turn, because elections have consequences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-go-over-the-fiscal-cliff/639874.md?page=3)