# Let's Have a Frank Discussion on Race **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161 "2010-07-27T09:18:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/241 "2010-08-01T17:30:26Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > Everywhere in the world they live blacks have considerably higher rates of crime and illegitimacy than whites and Orientals. > > Got a cite for this? I sincerely doubt this is true. Even a cursory glance at nationmaster for the [per capita murder rate](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) or [rapes per capita](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita) debunks your claim. No it doesn’t either. There is a very strong correlation between race and violent crime. There is no country with a higher black population than the United States with a lower rate of murder and rape. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/242 "2010-08-01T17:34:53Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Please don’t take this the wrong way, but how do you define the word "racist"such that you would not be included in that group? Let’s look at the text book definition: > > > [@](#): > > > > [Racist](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racist) > > Main Entry: rac·ism > > Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi- > > Function: noun > > Date: 1933 > > > > 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race > > 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination > > You said you believe certain “irreducible moral failings”, that are caused genetically, are responsible for Black inferiority. Putting aside the fact there is no evidence for such a statement, don’t you think that pretty much fits the definition of a racist? By that definition I am a racist, but then so are most Americans. I really do not care. I believe that genes are the primary determinant of human traits, and that these genes vary between the races. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/243 "2010-08-01T17:35:32Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Everywhere in the world they live blacks have considerably higher rates of crime and illegitimacy than whites and Orientals. This has always been true. I think this is due to “irreducible moral failings” that are caused genetically. I would like to be proven wrong. Thailand has a much, much, much higher “Oriental” population and lower black population than the U.S. (both in gross numbers and as percentages), yet it has almost double the per capita murder rate. This does not seem in keeping with your claim. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/244 "2010-08-01T17:36:36Z")
_whoops, double post_ ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/245 "2010-08-01T17:38:52Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Also, what is a “non violent drug offense?” Drug dealers are very violent men. What percentage of convicts are in prison because of the possession of an illegal drug for private consumption? I do not know the answer to that question. I invite anyone to supply it, but I would like for the answer to be documented. I am confident that the answer is very small. > . You must be joking. What are non violent drug offenses? So blacks that are arrested for drugs are dealers rather than simple possesion? You came to that one sided conclusion without data and now require someone to prove you wrong. I hope you can see what that indicates of your attitude. Had you spent a minute or two reading the posts you’d have found [this](http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81105/section/2) from the larger [this](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/7/12/883698/-Black-Powers-Gonna-Get-You-Sucka:-Right-Wing-Paranoia-and-the-Rhetoric-of-Modern-Racism) Lot’s of data in there. Knock yourself out. > [@](#): > > 1.In every year from 1980 to 2007, blacks were arrested nationwide on drug charges at rates relative to population that were 2.8 to 5.5 times higher than white arrest rates.[1] > 2.State-by-state data from 2006 show that blacks were arrested for drug offenses at rates in individual states that were 2 to 11.3 times greater than the rate for whites.[2] > The data also shed light on the persistence and extent of arrests for drug possession rather than sales: > 1.In every year between 1980 and 2007, arrests for drug possession have constituted 64 percent or more of all drug arrests. From 1999 through 2007, 80 percent or more of all drug arrests were for possession ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/246 "2010-08-01T17:41:43Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > [@brickbacon](#): > > > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > > > Everywhere in the world they live blacks have considerably higher rates of crime and illegitimacy than whites and Orientals. > > > > Got a cite for this? I sincerely doubt this is true. Even a cursory glance at nationmaster for the [per capita murder rate](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) or [rapes per capita](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita) debunks your claim. > > No it doesn’t either. There is a very strong correlation between race and violent crime. There is no country with a higher black population than the United States with a lower rate of murder and rape. I looked at the charts again. Zambia has a lower rate of rape. My earlier statement about correlation stands. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/247 "2010-08-01T17:44:34Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > By that definition I am a racist, but then so are most Americans. I really do not care. So you admit you are a racist? Why then are all pissed off when people call you on it? > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I believe that genes are the primary determinant of human traits, and that these genes vary between the races. Genes vary between every “group”. That doesn’t tell us much other than that we are not all identical. You are confusing race and genes. They are not the same. Again, even assuming they were, what makes you think genes are the primary determinant of human traits when there is much evidence to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/248 "2010-08-01T17:46:09Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > By that definition I am a racist, but then so are most Americans. I really do not care. > > I believe that genes are the primary determinant of human traits, and that these genes vary between the races. and you believe this based on what data? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/249 "2010-08-01T17:49:01Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > > [@brickbacon](#): > > > > > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > > > > > Everywhere in the world they live blacks have considerably higher rates of crime and illegitimacy than whites and Orientals. > > > > > > Got a cite for this? I sincerely doubt this is true. Even a cursory glance at nationmaster for the [per capita murder rate](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) or [rapes per capita](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita) debunks your claim. > > > > No it doesn’t either. There is a very strong correlation between race and violent crime. There is no country with a higher black population than the United States with a lower rate of murder and rape. > > I looked at the charts again. Zambia has a lower rate of rape. My earlier statement about correlation stands. This is what else I learned about Zambia: # We advise you to exercise a high degree of caution in Zambia because of the risk of serious criminal activity. # Pay close attention to your personal security at all times and monitor the media for information about possible new safety or security risks. # You should avoid large crowds, political rallies and demonstrations as they may turn violent. # We advise you to reconsider your need to travel to the border areas with the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Angola and Mozambique because of the presence of landmines near these borders. # The level of HIV/AIDS infection in Zambia is very high. [http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/zambia](http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/zambia) ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/250 "2010-08-01T17:50:50Z")
Much of Africa is not well-off by international standards. This is not news to anyone. The question is whether this is for genetic reasons. What evidence indicates that it is? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/251 "2010-08-01T17:51:05Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > By that definition I am a racist, but then so are most Americans. I really do not care. > > > > I believe that genes are the primary determinant of human traits, and that these genes vary between the races. > > and you believe this based on what data? I believe it on the basis of constants between the races. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/252 "2010-08-01T17:54:51Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > By that definition I am a racist, but then so are most Americans. I really do not care. > > So you admit you are a racist? Why then are all pissed off when people call you on it? > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > I believe that genes are the primary determinant of human traits, and that these genes vary between the races. > > Genes vary between every “group”. That doesn’t tell us much other than that we are not all identical. You are confusing race and genes. They are not the same. Again, even assuming they were, what makes you think genes are the primary determinant of human traits when there is much evidence to the contrary? It is a hypothesis that I am confident will soon be proven as more is learned about he human genome. The obvious failure of No Child Left Behind provides impressive evidence for The Bell Curve. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/253 "2010-08-01T18:00:07Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > > [@brickbacon](#): > > > > > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > > > > > Everywhere in the world they live blacks have considerably higher rates of crime and illegitimacy than whites and Orientals. > > > > > > Got a cite for this? I sincerely doubt this is true. Even a cursory glance at nationmaster for the [per capita murder rate](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) or [rapes per capita](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita) debunks your claim. > > > > No it doesn’t either. There is a very strong correlation between race and violent crime. There is no country with a higher black population than the United States with a lower rate of murder and rape. > > I looked at the charts again. Zambia has a lower rate of rape. My earlier statement about correlation stands. Nice try. You either didn’t look at the charts, or are unwilling to stand behind your original statement. You said: > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Everywhere in the world they live blacks have considerably higher rates of crime and illegitimacy than whites and Orientals. This is not true, nor is it simply a suggestion that such a thing is a correlation. Particularly since you openly assert a causal link. You also decided to move the goalposts by using the US as a basis of comparison rather that letting your statement on race succeed or fail on their own merit. If you think being Black means you have a genetic disposition to crime, you would see high(er) crime rates everywhere there are Black people. That is clearly not the case. If you wish to assert their is some geographic determinant involved, that would suppose a link to culture and environment rather than genes (as you seem to be saying). Let’s look a the murder rate for Zimbabwe. Their murder rate is surpassed by several majority White European countries (and a couple Asian ones). WRT to the rape rate, Zimbabwe is surpassed by Canada (among others). Please provide a cite for you claim, or admit what you said is false? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/254 "2010-08-01T18:02:16Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Much of Africa is not well-off by international standards. This is not news to anyone. The question is whether this is for genetic reasons. What evidence indicates that it is? The standard of living of every black African country has declined since the end of colonialism. Haiti has the longest history of a black majority country. It also has the lowest standard of living in North or South America. Point out one, I mean one, black majority country that is well run with a low crime rate and a thriving economy. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/255 "2010-08-01T18:08:38Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > It is a hypothesis that I am confident will soon be proven as more is learned about he human genome. Why are you so confident this is the case? You seemed to be confident a second ago that Blacks everywhere committed more crimes, yet, that did not turn out to be the case. Let’s think about this for a second. I think you agree that the vast majority of people who study these things for living disagree with many of the statements you’ve made. What are they not seeing that you (and a few others) are? > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The obvious failure of No Child Left Behind provides impressive evidence for The Bell Curve. Do you know what NCLB is? Do you understand the typical complaints people have about the initiative and its implementation? Statements like this just indicate that your ignorance is not limited to genetics. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/256 "2010-08-01T18:10:24Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > > > Also, what is a “non violent drug offense?” Drug dealers are very violent men. What percentage of convicts are in prison because of the possession of an illegal drug for private consumption? I do not know the answer to that question. I invite anyone to supply it, but I would like for the answer to be documented. I am confident that the answer is very small. > > . > > You must be joking. What are non violent drug offenses? So blacks that are arrested for drugs are dealers rather than simple possesion? You came to that one sided conclusion without data and now require someone to prove you wrong. > I hope you can see what that indicates of your attitude. Had you spent a minute or two reading the posts you’d have found [this](http://www.hrw.org/en/node/81105/section/2) from the larger [this](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/7/12/883698/-Black-Powers-Gonna-Get-You-Sucka:-Right-Wing-Paranoia-and-the-Rhetoric-of-Modern-Racism) Lot’s of data in there. Knock yourself out. > > > [@](#): > > > > 1.In every year from 1980 to 2007, blacks were arrested nationwide on drug charges at rates relative to population that were 2.8 to 5.5 times higher than white arrest rates.[1] > > 2.State-by-state data from 2006 show that blacks were arrested for drug offenses at rates in individual states that were 2 to 11.3 times greater than the rate for whites.[2] > > The data also shed light on the persistence and extent of arrests for drug possession rather than sales: > > 1.In every year between 1980 and 2007, arrests for drug possession have constituted 64 percent or more of all drug arrests. From 1999 through 2007, 80 percent or more of all drug arrests were for possession Thank you for those links. I still want to know what percentage of people are in prison for possession of illegal drugs for personal consumption. What matters is that blacks have a much higher rate of violent crime than whites. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/257 "2010-08-01T18:31:21Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Do you know what NCLB is? Do you understand the typical complaints people have about the initiative and its implementation? Statements like this just indicate that your ignorance is not limited to genetics. By Randi Weingarten Posted: January 12, 2010 Randi Weingarten is president of the American Federation of Teachers. What have we learned from the \*\*No Child Left Behind \*\*Act? In a word: lots. Unfortunately, most of what we have learned shows that while the law’s mission of creating high standards for all children was critical, its focus on stakes (the faulty emphasis on tests) and sticks (punishing schools in need of help) **hasn’t strengthened public education** … And after years of living with and working under the law, the simple truth is that **it has not achieved its stated objectives** , its flaws outweigh its goals, and funding for it never approached promised levels… [http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/01/12/afts-weingarten-no-child-left-behind-was-doomed-by-its-flaws.html](http://politics.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/01/12/afts-weingarten-no-child-left-behind-was-doomed-by-its-flaws.html) * * * I am not surprised that the president of the American Federation of Teachers thinks more money should have been spent. What matters is her acknowledgement of failure. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/258 "2010-08-01T18:40:46Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Point out one, I mean one, black majority country that is well run with a low crime rate and a thriving economy. Depends on how you define the above terms. What do you think of the following countries? [Brazil](http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_4761.shtml), [Antigua & Barbados](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ac.html), [Anguilla](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/av.html), [Gabon](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/gb.html), etc. > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I am not surprised that the president of the American Federation of Teachers thinks more money should have been spent. What matters is her acknowledgement of failure. Follow along here. Your statement was as follows: > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The obvious failure of No Child Left Behind provides impressive evidence for The Bell Curve. How does what you quoted relate to your comment? Why does the failure of NCLB provide evidence for The Bell Curve? How are they necessarily related? Also, do you care ot comment on any of the other things I asked you about, or provide any proof or evidence for your claims? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/259 "2010-08-01T18:56:31Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Let’s look a the murder rate for Zimbabwe. Their murder rate is surpassed by several majority White European countries (and a couple Asian ones). WRT to the rape rate, Zimbabwe is surpassed by Canada (among others). Please provide a cite for you claim, or admit what you said is false? According to [NationMaster.com](http://NationMaster.com) the murder rate for Zimbabwe is 0.0749938 per 1,000 people per year. For Canada it is 0.0149063 per 1,000 people per year. I have acknowledged the high murder rate of former Warsaw Pact countries, and attributed it to social dislocations following the fall of Communism. [Countries Compared by Crime \> Murders \> Per capita. International Statistics at NationMaster.com](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita) This is what I also found about Zimbabwe: "Crime is a serious problem in Zimbabwe, driven by the country’s depressed economic conditions. Street crime in Zimbabwe is a serious problem. Americans and other foreigners are perceived to be wealthy and are frequently targeted by criminals who operate in the vicinity of hotels, restaurants, and shopping areas of the major cities and tourist areas such as Victoria Falls. Although the majority of crimes in Zimbabwe are non-violent, perpetrators are generally armed with weapons, which can include firearms. The downtown sectors of Harare, and its high density residential suburbs, are particularly high-crime areas and a number of American visitors have been assaulted or robbed. Reports of armed, residential burglaries in upscale residential areas have increased. " > **[404 - Page Not Found](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/404.html)** ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/260 "2010-08-01T18:59:58Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > How does what you quoted relate to your comment? Why does the failure of NCLB provide evidence for The Bell Curve? How are they necessarily related? No Child Left Behind assumes that every child can do well in school. The Bell Curve explains why that is not true. The failure of NCLB confirms what The Bell Curve explains. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161.md?page=14)