# Let's Have a Frank Discussion on Race **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161 "2010-07-27T09:18:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/341 "2011-03-23T15:27:50Z")
> [@Don123](#): > > Yeah, throwing a prime ripe Mango (worth cash money) at a pack of black dogs was a real sacrifice for to me, but that was all I had at the time. I regretted it later as that action reduced my inventory, that reduced my profits. > > But I take it you never had a prime ripe Mango freshly picket and eaten the same day before the pitch slightly dries at the stem mark. > > Sad , very sad. If you had even ONE you would beg me for more. > > I did not like selling on street corners, but when I had my wagons filled with ripe fruit in Florida, even the black cops pulled over and bought from me while they were on duty. The black cop pushing their own kind out of the way so they buy next. > > Many times a line formed to buy my fruits. I remember blacks driving by as I pulled my wagons of fruit down the side walks going door to door— there is the “white boy” stop and see what he has. I could not pick enough, stay awake long enough, work hard enough to satisfy my customers and the cash came in. > > I’m telling you, one bite of tree ripe fruit and you will think you are in heaven for the pleasure. And to eat a perfect Mango, is not good unless the juice runs out of your mouth and down onto your chest, where you have to lean over as not to get your feet wet. > > I’m telling you as time went on people commissioned me to supply the fruits and veggies for their parties. By age 9-10 I was making as much as my public school teachers. > > The key was, as time went on, I had contracted (verbally) with white home owners that had fruit trees in their yards. In exchange for a reduced price in lawn care, and tree service, I could get the fruit. It took no time at all I had more than one business running, both making money. My transportation was walk, my bike(s), public busses, or running. Today’s society put these kinds of children on drugs, as being incurable hyperactive—what a shame. > > In grade school, and middle school, I was a piss poor student but A’s and B’s on all the final test. I did not do home work. I could not stay awake in class and was confined to the library. Every pass getting out of school was a good pass, so I could get to work making money. The school would call my parents and say your child passed out in class come and get him. They said Nah, he is sleeping, he was working his sales rout late for the last two nights, give him an hour to rest, and send him home on his bike—he is OK. But I did not go home, I went to pick or sell and got home late. > > I learned more in the library than what the stupid teaches had to say and the other children were too brain dead for me to get along with. It was a very cruel world at the time, and you had to be the best in order to survive and prosper. And that I did, thank GOD for my “pure white” genetics. > > Don Is that some kind of metaphor for some act of child prostitution? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/342 "2011-03-23T21:29:16Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I understand the impulse to mock **Don123** ’s story, having done some of the same, but the rules of this forum do still apply: you’re not allowed to call another poster a liar or a troll. Announcing that another poster is on your ignore list (which **Damuri Ajashi** did not do directly, but he comes close) is also not allowed. Since someone resurrected this thread. I don’t have Don 123 on my ignore list (I only have one person on my ignore list), he was just too amusing. I’m thinking of giving my kid a wagon to go around selling mangoes to cops so he can later get really rich selling screen doors in Gary Indian by pitting a black saleman against a white salesman. But now that I look back at my post, I was impermissibly calling him a troll or accusing him of making stuff up. I apologize, there was no malice, I was just squeezing my bellybutton so hard I forgot my manners. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/343 "2011-03-23T21:53:37Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Since someone resurrected this thread. I don’t have Don 123 on my ignore list (I only have one person on my ignore list), he was just too amusing. I’m thinking of giving my kid a wagon to go around selling mangoes to cops so he can later get really rich selling screen doors in Gary Indian by pitting a black saleman against a white salesman. > > But now that I look back at my post, I was impermissibly calling him a troll or accusing him of making stuff up. I apologize, there was no malice, I was just squeezing my bellybutton so hard I forgot my manners. Since he’s apparently banned, having him on your ignore list would be rather pointless. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/344 "2011-03-23T22:59:39Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > At present in America, African Americans disproportionately live in impoverished and high crime neighborhoods and suffer exposure to conditions that are adverse to good heath at disproportionate rates. They are disproportionately subject to arrest and experience disproportionate sentencing. Their children are more likely to experience substandard educational environments. They continue to experience efforts to prevent them from voting at disproportionate rates, and are disproportionally more likely to be shot for trying to cross a bridge to escape from catastrophic flooding. They are disproportionately more likely to be targeted by a particular political party in order to scare up votes. > > There are some who look at these facts and say that they exist due to defects of character endemic to African Americans. > > There are others who will look at these facts and say that they exist due to defects of character endemic to America. > > That is the frank discussion that generally remains unresolved, and until it is, posts like the OP and others that have followed appear particularly asinine. Until those in the first group are able to express their opinions in public without fear of economic and social sanctions, the liberal call for a dialogue on race is dishonest and hypocritical. I would love for their to be a real dialogue on race, but I would want Charles Murray to be part of the panel. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/345 "2011-03-24T05:11:02Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Until those in the first group are able to express their opinions in public without fear of economic and social sanctions, the liberal call for a dialogue on race is dishonest and hypocritical. I would love for their to be a real dialogue on race, but I would want Charles Murray to be part of the panel. Please don’t tell me you’re one of those idiots who thinks that straight white males are the most oppressed people in America. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/346 "2011-03-24T05:32:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please don’t tell me you’re one of those idiots. . . . I realize that the “those idiots” refers to an outside group of people, but associating them with a poster, even as a hypothetical or in a rhetorical device is too close to name-calling. Dial it back. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/347 "2011-03-24T06:07:06Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Please don’t tell me you’re one of those idiots who thinks that straight white males are the most oppressed people in America. I did not say that, and I do not believe it. I was complaining about the hypocrisy of those who call for a dialogue on race after effectively suppressing such a dialogue. They do not want a dialogue; they want a monologue, with them doing all the talking. They expect us to listen mutely and sheepishly like children being scolded for having done something they knew was bad. If there is to be “a frank discussion on race” one must be able to talk about black social pathology without claiming that whites are somehow responsible. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/348 "2011-03-24T06:42:53Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > I did not say that, and I do not believe it. I was complaining about the hypocrisy of those who call for a dialogue on race after effectively suppressing such a dialogue. They do not want a dialogue; they want a monologue, with them doing all the talking. They expect us to listen mutely and sheepishly like children being scolded for having done something they knew was bad. > > If there is to be “a frank discussion on race” one must be able to talk about black social pathology without claiming that whites are somehow responsible. Dude, lots of people rant about the “pathologies” that supposedly afflict black people. You remember that guy named Ronald Reagan who got elected President after ranting about “welfare queens”. I assume you’ve also heard of The New Republic, The National Review, and The Weekly Standard. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/349 "2011-03-24T06:54:59Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Dude, lots of people rant about the “pathologies” that supposedly afflict black people. You remember that guy named Ronald Reagan who got elected President after ranting about “welfare queens”. > > I assume you’ve also heard of The New Republic, The National Review, and The Weekly Standard. Yes, and I read those magazines from time to time. Those pathologies do not “supposedly” effect black people. They really do. If there is to be “a frank discussion on race,” one must be able to discuss facts about high rates of black crime and illegitimacy, and inferior black intellectual performance, without blaming whites for these. Otherwise the call for “a dialogue on race” will resemble the Hundred Flowers Campaign in Communist China in 1957. Chinese were encouraged to criticize the government. When they did, they were punished. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/350 "2011-03-24T07:02:49Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Yes, and I read those magazines from time to time. > > Those pathologies do not “supposedly” effect black people. They really do. If there is to be “a frank discussion on race,” one must be able to discuss facts about high rates of black crime and illegitimacy, and inferior black intellectual performance, without blaming whites for these. Otherwise the call for “a dialogue on race” will resemble the Hundred Flowers Campaign in Communist China in 1957. Chinese were encouraged to criticize the government. When they did, they were punished. So you think Reagan getting elected President twice(once in the biggest political landslide in US history) was an example of being “punished”? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/351 "2011-03-24T07:47:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > (I only have one person on my ignore list) Sounds like a devilishly handsome and brutally intelligent guy. I wonder who he might be? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/352 "2011-03-24T12:09:05Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So you think Reagan getting elected President twice(once in the biggest political landslide in US history) was an example of being “punished”? I voted against Ronald Reagan twice, and think he had an enduring bad effect on American politics. Nevertheless, the fact that he was elected, and reelected certainly does indicate that most whites think most blacks are a problem. Unfortunately, there are effective sanctions against saying so explicitly. For example, when James D. Watson, who co-discovered DNA in 1953 and shared a Nobel Prize for that discovery in 1962 said that he was, “inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours – whereas all the testing says not really”, and I know that this “hot potato” is going to be difficult to address. His hope is that everyone is equal, but he counters that “people who have to deal with black employees find this not true”. He says that you should not discriminate on the basis of colour, because “there are many people of colour who are very talented, but don’t promote them when they haven’t succeeded at the lower level”. He writes that “there is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically. Our wanting to reserve equal powers of reason as some universal heritage of humanity will not be enough to make it so,” he was forced to step down as Administrator of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory. > **[James Watson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_D._Watson)** > > This is an accepted version of this page > > James Dewey Watson (born April 6, 1928) is an American molecular biologist, geneticist, and zoologist. In 1953, he co-authored with Francis Crick the academic paper in Nature proposing the double helix structure of the DNA molecule. Watson, Crick and Maurice Wilkins were awarded the 1962 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine "for their discoveries concerning the molecular structure of nucleic acids and its significance for information transfer in living... If something like this can happen to a man like James D. Watson, I am confident that it happens to people with fewer achievements. I cannot document this, but I am fairly confident that being known to agree with The Bell Curve will keep one from getting a teaching position at many colleges and universities. As long as this continues there cannot be “a frank discussion on race.” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/353 "2011-03-24T14:55:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since he’s apparently banned, having him on your ignore list would be rather pointless. I just wanted to distinguish the phrase “ignore him” from “put him on ignore” Perhaps its a distinction that only exists in my head but I reserve the ignore list for special situations. It is not enough to be wrong or stupid or bigoted or say things that I strongly disagree with. You have to start bringing out the worst in people before I think you are better off not being heard from. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/354 "2011-03-24T15:14:23Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > As long as this continues there cannot be “a frank discussion on race.” So you’re telling us that you’re going to shut it up on the subject? That’s great, I dont think you needed to post fifty-something times to tell us though, once would have sufficed. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/355 "2011-03-24T15:52:22Z")
**FinnAgain** and **Damuri Ajashi** , please drop the ignore list discussion. It’s irrelevant to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/356 "2011-03-24T16:36:39Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > … If there is to be “a frank discussion on race,” one must be able to discuss facts about high rates of black crime and illegitimacy, and inferior black intellectual performance, without blaming whites … Umm, and if _some_ part of the blame for high rates of black crime and illegitimacy, and inferior black intellectual performance are in fact the fault of Whites we just what, ignore it, in this “frank discussion on race”? :dubious: CMC fnord! 'Cause, for instance, I seem to recall “The Destruction of the Black Family” being laid squarely at the feet of “The Welfare State” once upon a time. But what I don’t seem to recall is White folks not being overwhelmingly in charge of making up the eligibility rules (which IIRC led directly to an increase in “illegitimacy” and one parent families). ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/357 "2011-03-25T02:10:09Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Umm, and if _some_ part of the blame for high rates of black crime and illegitimacy, and inferior black intellectual performance are in fact the fault of Whites we just what, ignore it, in this “frank discussion on race”? :dubious: > > CMC fnord! > 'Cause, for instance, I seem to recall “The Destruction of the Black Family” being laid squarely at the feet of “The Welfare State” once upon a time. But what I don’t seem to recall is White folks not being overwhelmingly in charge of making up the eligibility rules (which IIRC led directly to an increase in “illegitimacy” and one parent families). Those who choose to blame black social pathology on whites should be part of the dialogue on race, but they should be expected to debate their opinions rationally and civilly. They should no longer be able to shout “Racist!” at those they disagree with in order to end the dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/358 "2011-03-25T12:36:14Z")
If there is to be “a frank discussion on race,” it will need to be more dignified than this debate. J. Philippe Rushton’s opponent in this debate demanded that Rushton be fired. For there to be a dialogue on race there must be no sanctions whatsoever against what Professor Rushton argues. > **[CBC Archives](https://www.cbc.ca/archives)** > > CBC archives - Canada's home for news, sports, lifestyle, comedy, arts, kids, music, original series & more. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/359 "2011-03-25T16:35:38Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I see this and think that this might be part of the problem. You’re essentially telling people to forget about or ignore their own cultural heritage which may or may not be very important to them. Sticking our heads in the sand isn’t really going to help. I don’t see it this way at all (and it is a viewpoint I happen to agree with) America has so dissolved into it’s only little cliques and sects that they forget to be AMERICANS first. You can hold your heritage up high, after assuming the mantle of being an American. It isn’t like that now, people would more readily self identify as an African American or an Irish American that an American. This is a problem when all these people are only out for their self interests (as a race) instead of the greater good of ALL Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/360 "2011-03-25T16:46:50Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Those who choose to blame black social pathology on whites should be part of the dialogue on race, but they should be expected to debate their opinions rationally and civilly. They should no longer be able to shout “Racist!” at those they disagree with in order to end the dialogue. What is wrong with calling someone who is a racist a “racist”? Are we not allowed to call Nazis “anti-Semites” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161.md?page=19)