# Let's Have a Frank Discussion on Race **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161 "2010-07-27T09:18:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/41 "2010-07-27T14:35:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Do you see my point based on the thread so far? I posted something at odds with the received wisdom about race. Almost immediately we see folks like **Whack-A-Mole** quite blatantly making things up and responding to that, and saying fairly explicitly that he is not prepared to consider nuance in any fashion - any effort to be accurate will be ignored in favor of the kind of caricatured thinking that is apparently all he wants to see. I accepted (or at least did not talk about) your claim that I said “by and large” equates to “100%”. I asked you to define what “by and large” means. You have so far not answered that. One thing is for sure, “by and large” is light years away from the nuance you seem to think I am avoiding. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/42 "2010-07-27T14:35:47Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > > [@Raygun99](#): > > > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > > > Later, noted **black woman** Cokie Roberts > > > > [Huh?](http://chicagofree.info/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/Cokie-Roberts.jpg) > > I _think_ it was sarcasm, but honestly, I don’t know what it was intended to be sarcastic about. Whiny middle-aged voice on: “I didn’t knoe Abraam Lincoln was Jewish!” - Edith Bunker, from All in the Family ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/43 "2010-07-27T14:37:22Z")
A guy walks up to his neighbor every day for fifty years and punches him in the face. When year fifty-one rolls around, the guy goes up and stands in front of his neighbor and says, “Hi, idiot.” “What do you want?” the neighbor asks. “Well, you’re hostile,” the guy says. “What’s your problem?” “You’ve punched me in the face every day for fifty years and now you’re calling me an idiot.” “Well, I’ve stopped punching you, idiot. You need to get over it. Then I’ll stop calling you an idiot.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/44 "2010-07-27T14:40:41Z")
> [@Camus](#): > > This is difficult to achieve when others of a different ethnic background see you as your ethnic background first and don’t feel any special bond or commonality with you because of your nationality So lead by example. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > And institutionalized slavery was unique. I hear this often. It is simply not true. Slavery - institutionalised or otherwise - was commonplace from the dawn of time until very recently. The lot of blacks in America was not exceptional. Slaves working mines in Rome or Greece would envy them. Hmm… maybe if Americans learned more of ancient history in school…? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/45 "2010-07-27T14:41:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Marley23](#): > > > > Americans do talk about race a lot and are kind of obsessive about it. But the topic is usually broached in a superficial way, perhaps because so many white people are afraid of being tarred as racists. > > Actually, almost the opposite - a frank discussion is only going to be possible when and if white people no longer care about being called racist. > > The accusation of racism is supposed to be the trump card that ends discussion. If a discussion if going to be truly frank, then neither side can shut off discussion once it starts to trend against their position. > > Regards, > Shodan We need to acknowledge that racism exists in many if not most of us, when we recognize someone as part of the “other” and that recognition influences our behaviour. It’s part of the subtlty Obama spoke of in his speech when he referenced his grandmother. So yes, we as a collective group are racist ti varying degrees. Acknowledgeing that we don’t need to let the mere accusation be an indication of evil and hatred and shut down a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/46 "2010-07-27T14:42:00Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > 1. From this Canadian’s perspective, the biggest problem with Americans is that they won’t _shut up_ about race. Can’t expect you to understand. The role of race in American history is outside the Canadian experience. I suppose you have your own racial tensions, whites vs. Indians vs. Asians, but it’s **nothing** like the American experience. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/47 "2010-07-27T14:44:48Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > > > **Sam** , what makes you think a problem goes away if you ignore it? > > What makes you think the problem can be made to go away at all? My belief that our better nature can overcome our worse nature. It’s been demonstrated time and again in the past. > [@](#): > > There is no fix for the “race problem.” What makes you think that? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/48 "2010-07-27T14:46:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In my experience only (read that again) black Americans do not let me forget they are black. This is not the case (again for me) with Jews or Asians or Hispanics or what have you. To some extent this raises the issue of assimilation. My understanding is that many minority groups consider it a negative concept, and believe they should be accepted as they are. Blacks do not have the option of changing their skin color as easily as a muslim could shed her burkha (sp?) or a jew his yarmulke. Even the “whitest black” will encounter racism at least occasionally (altho I believe there is an aspect of one seeing the amount of racism they want to see.) I’m a caucasian mutt of European descent, with no religion and no historical ethnic loyalty. From my viewpoint it confuses me to see people volitionally adopting appearances/behaviors that seem aimed at emphasizing their difference, and then complaining that they are treated differently. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/49 "2010-07-27T14:51:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > > [@Dinsdale](#): > > > > And institutionalized slavery was unique. > > I hear this often. It is simply not true. Slavery - institutionalised or otherwise - was commonplace from the dawn of time until very recently. The lot of blacks in America was not exceptional. Slaves working mines in Rome or Greece would envy them. I intended to communicate that the lot of enslaved blacks was unique within Americans, as I thought we were discussing American society. Were any other groups systemmatically enslaved in America? If not, than I stand by my original statement. Tho I could imagine Native Americans presenting a decent argument. Hell, given the choice, they might have chosen slavery over extermination… ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/50 "2010-07-27T14:54:25Z")
Underlying this whole discussion is the fundamental dialog: Spoken by the dominant voice : “Why can’t they be more like us?” Spoken by the subordinate voice : “I shouldn’t have to be like them, and why do they get to decide how someone should be? Why can’t they let us be?” The same exact dialog occurs when the rich talk about the poor, or men and women talk about each other. All the rest is just petty details. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/51 "2010-07-27T14:58:05Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m a caucasian mutt of European descent, with no religion and no historical ethnic loyalty. From my viewpoint it confuses me to see people volitionally adopting appearances/behaviors that seem aimed at emphasizing their difference, and then complaining that they are treated differently. Indeed. You can see this in something as basic as youth versus elders (for lack of a better way to put it). Regardless of race or whatnot you will see this division simply on age. Kids dress the way the current trends dictate which often puzzle their elders. Happened to me when I was a kid and now as a middle aged guy I puzzle at them thinking, “Seriously dude! What’s with the baggy pants practically hanging around your knees and your underwear showing?” In the end if that is what they want to wear it is not for me to say no but I still wonder at it and they of course see me as the old square. I swore when I was young I would not become “that guy” but alas the universe plays these tricks on us. (And I am not THAT square such that I will get in their face about it…just dismays me is all.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/52 "2010-07-27T15:00:47Z")
[Recommended read](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/7/12/883698/-Black-Powers-Gonna-Get-You-Sucka:-Right-Wing-Paranoia-and-the-Rhetoric-of-Modern-Racism). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/53 "2010-07-27T15:12:49Z")
Of course there is residual racism in the U.S., as in every country in the world. The people who keep referring _ad nauseum_ to the need for a “frank discussion on race” really mean “White people need to keep apologizing until everything is fixed.” It would be preferable if everyone tried harder to act decently and quit yammering. By the way, the phrase “a frank discussion” brings to mind [this famous cartoon](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2737/4396610437_9eeb0d3452.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.correntewire.com/sunday_atheism_blogging&usg=__vHmUWE7pmctrcIGndoJ4SCBgZZo=&h=500&w=404&sz=146&hl=en&start=16&tbnid=lFLywniY5N771M:&tbnh=132&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddreyfus%2Baffair%2Bcartoon%2Bthey%2Btalked%2Bof%2Bit%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*%26biw%3D1003%26bih%3D575%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C511&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=118&vpy=30&dur=297&hovh=250&hovw=202&tx=109&ty=147&ei=pending&page=2&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:16&biw=1003&bih=575) from when France was in turmoil over the Dreyfus Affair. In the top panel, a French family at dinner is told by the head of the household not to mention the Affair. In the bottom panel, a frank discussion has broken out. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/54 "2010-07-27T15:26:40Z")
**Dinsdale** , read [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood,_Tulsa,_Oklahoma). This happened in 1921, well within living memory. And yet the whole topic was completely ignored until very recently. I grew up in Oklahoma and never heard of it until the last few years. I’m pretty sure black kids in Tulsa knew about it, though. Tulsa is still a very racially divided city. Would it surprise you to find out that some blacks in Tulsa don’t necessarily believe that white culture will allow them to succeed? And if you don’t believe that you’ll be allowed to succeed in the dominant culture, why bother trying? Please note that these people had created the exact sort of self-contained community that you’ve mentioned - and people were killed and their community destroyed because of it. My grandmother would have been about 25 when this happened. I somehow think that if her family had been ruined by these riots, my outlook on life would be a whole lot different, don’tcha know. And I suspect that my kids’ feelings about “success in mainstream culture” would be greatly affected by that. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/55 "2010-07-27T15:27:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Agreed. America, _get over it_. Look to the future, not the past. Stop being African Americans or Italian Americans or Hispanic Americans or Native Americans or whatever Americans because it’s self perpetuating and start being Americans. There really isn’t a problem with Italian American race relations. You might not have the same perspective we do because you do not have as much of a history of slavery and you do not face a demographically significant wave of illegal immigration. How much influence did the Klu Klux Klan have in Canadian politics over the last couple of hundred years? We recently had a senator pass away that was a member of the Klan, he renounced his afilliations but the Klan was so ubiquitous that being a member of the Klan was de rigeur for politicians in some districts. We can either try to pretend none of that ever happened and that we are all starting off on the same level playing field or we can recognize the past injustice, recognize that there is a limit to what we can do to recitfy that injustice and then and ONLY then can we move forward. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/56 "2010-07-27T15:31:22Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > Only since the 60s has it been possible for any serious attempt to improve their collective position; that isn’t really that much time for such a slog against ingrained prejudice and poverty. > > Not arguing, simply asking for information/opinions: What is your impression of the gains that have been made in the past 50 years? Is the pace of improvement increasing/steady/declining? Are there any other groups that can be compared over a similar period? Asian boat people? Today’s Muslims? I don’t think there is any comparable group in America in recent times. Go far back enough and an analogy could be made with the Native Americans, where a special point was made of destroying any groups that actually succeeded in adopting “civilized” ways. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > And hell, don’t talk to any number of Jews about a couple of hundred years of servitude and oppression! 😉 I have always been impressed at Jews’ historical willingness to say “Fuck you” to a majority culture which excluded them from its institutions, and to form their own. Why are blacks incapable of doing the same? Because they weren’t allowed. They weren’t simply excluded from white society; if they prospered on their own everything they had would be taken from them. > [@Dinsdale](#): > > Also, I think it is somewhat hyperbolic to say that _“for a black to ‘advance his position’ would just mean that the local white authorities would simply take everything away from him, and quite possibly kill him in the process.”_ Hardly, it’s the simple truth. Some black guy did too well, his home and property and money would be confiscated and he’d have a good chance of being killed as an example to others who might be getting uppity. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/57 "2010-07-27T15:35:00Z")
Thanks, **redtail**. I admit that when I was thinking of “the North” I was thinking of Chicago, Detroit, and the Northeast rather than Tulsa. Are you aware of other such incidents? And I kind of disagree with your characterization of 1921 as being “well-within living memory.” I don’t know all that many nonagenarians. Instead, my middle-aged memory is of multiple instances in which blacks torched and looted their own communities in the 60s and more recently. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/58 "2010-07-27T15:35:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > > [@Dinsdale](#): > > > > I’m a caucasian mutt of European descent, with no religion and no historical ethnic loyalty. From my viewpoint it confuses me to see people volitionally adopting appearances/behaviors that seem aimed at emphasizing their difference, and then complaining that they are treated differently. > > Indeed. > > You can see this in something as basic as youth versus elders (for lack of a better way to put it). Regardless of race or whatnot you will see this division simply on age. Kids dress the way the current trends dictate which often puzzle their elders. > > Happened to me when I was a kid and now as a middle aged guy I puzzle at them thinking, “Seriously dude! What’s with the baggy pants practically hanging around your knees and your underwear showing?” > > In the end if that is what they want to wear it is not for me to say no but I still wonder at it and they of course see me as the old square. > > I swore when I was young I would not become “that guy” but alas the universe plays these tricks on us. (And I am not THAT square such that I will get in their face about it…just dismays me is all.) All people , especially adolescents, try to create some kind of identity. What we’re talking about is that with every unique indentityor attempt at it, we offer basic human respect and equal consideration. It doesn’t matter if they wear baggy pants, spiked purple hair, pierced noses and lips, goth make up. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/59 "2010-07-27T15:38:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The problem with having a frank discussion on race is that it doesn’t always go in the direction the establishment wants it to. > > The problems of the black community, by and large, are not caused by white racism and cannot be addressed by anything white people do (or don’t do). Whenever we have a frank discussion on race, and it appears that the discussion is trending towards this particular elephant in the room, all those with a vested interest in the status quo, whether financial or emotional, begin screaming “Racist!” in unison until the frank discussion stops and the white guilt circle jerk resumes. > > Regards, > Shodan I agree that current racism is not the black community’s biggest problem. I think PAST racism is at least a large part of the black community’s problem. The two biggest current problems in the black community are the drug laws and rap music. We simply have too many black men in jail for drug offenses that a college student would get a stern lecture for. The lyrics of much of the rap music out today are poisonous. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/60 "2010-07-27T15:38:41Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’m not in a position to say there are NO ongoing disadvantageous “processes external to African Americans.” I don’t mean to cop out - simply acknowledging that I am not informed enough to identify what they may be. If you would be so kind as to offer some candidates, I will be happy to offer my impressions. But I’m just a middle-aged white guy, no student on race relations/history. Is it fair to say that you don’t feel comfortable to speculate about external factors that might be associated with disproportionately negative outcomes occuring among African Americans, but you do feel comfortable proposing that they “prey on themselves” and that there is something intrinsic about their failing to advance their positions? Why is it, do you think, that you don’t feel comfortable speculating about societal factors, but appear not to have qualms regarding speculation about intrinsically African American factors? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161.md?page=4)