# Let's Have a Frank Discussion on Race **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2010, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161 "2010-07-27T09:18:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/121 "2010-07-28T00:18:37Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Not analogous at all. Among blacks, women and gays, who got their “complete package” of civil rights first? Blacks. And yet to someone who lives in the third world, blacks appear to whine so much more loudly than is necessary. Heck, gays can’t even marry yet and not only do blacks whine more, they are overrepresented among those who oppose gay marriage. Talk about hypocrisy. Imagine what a state we’d be in if there were any black women or gay people, maybe even black lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/122 "2010-07-28T00:23:55Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > The only time I ever hear racism is raised is when some black person wants to play to white guilt. Nothing legitimate is ever presented that can’t be remedied in the courts. I say, it’s won. Blacks should get over it. :rolleyes: Yeah, it’s not like blacks count as people. If some bigoted cops shoot some blacks or they get beaten or harassed for being black, they should just put up with it like good cattle. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/123 "2010-07-28T00:28:41Z")
“The beatings will continue until morale improves” isn’t actually a sound political position. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/124 "2010-07-28T01:29:52Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Of course not. They should compare their lives to their white neighbors. The fact that most of them wreck it themselves is their fault. But when I watch documentaries showing black Americans in their most mournful faces about the supposed bigotry that they received - never mind that it’s mostly imaginary - I can’t help but compare their level of despair to those who actually have it so much worse. supposed bigotry? mostly imaginary? and you came to this conclusion how? I don’t deny that some blacks will use white bigotry as an excuse for their own bad decisions but don’t make that a cover all blanket to deny bigotry that we can do something about. It’s contrary to reality. I support personal responsibility for minorities rather than excuses, but while I personally am not responsible for past bigotry I am , as part of this society, responsible for dealing realistically with it’s problems , and that includes our heritage of racism. And let’s be clear, it’s not just being mean or impolite to blacks. It’s a few hundred years of vicious cruelty, and vicious cruelty within the living memories of many citizens. I understand the attitude of “I didn’t do it so why is it my problem?” but the answer is, because you live here and you inherited the effects of our history. That doesn’t have to translate into white guilt. It translates into, here we are together at this time. What do we do now, together, as a society to deal with the real issues our history has left for us. “Get over it” is an okay response if we all participate in that process. Using it as a callus dismissal of real suffering is pretty unimpressive and unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/125 "2010-07-28T01:31:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > “The beatings will continue until morale improves” isn’t actually a sound political position. are you the goddess of succinct? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/126 "2010-07-28T01:49:22Z")
IMO, to have a discussion on race would be futile because white people generally don’t look at blacks as equals. If you need evidence of this, just watch FOX news. James Baldwin once said (paraphrase) that blacks don’t want equality they simply want to live their existence in America without being beat, bludgeoned, and imprisoned by whites. That’s all. Now if you were to ask me what I want? I’d say I want Affirmative Action back but since whites only gave us from 1965 - 1978 before they decided to renege on the Civil Rights deal; I’ll take reparations instead. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/127 "2010-07-28T02:24:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > What ELSE is there? > > Equal treatment, no abuse. > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > Why is it the problem of “whites” if blacks are generally poorer and more inclined to criminality (whatever the root cause is)? > > Because to a large degree the “crime” in question is being black. Blacks are more likely than whites to be arrested and are punished worse for the same crimes. Or to just be harassed or killed for being black. > > Yes, the situation is better than it was, but that doesn’t make it good. Until I see research that takes into account socioeconomic factors like access to adequate defense, I simply won’t buy that it’s racism. A person in the slums of India is more often arrested and punished worse that those in the suburbs. Is that because of race? ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/128 "2010-07-28T02:26:32Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > > [@Jackmannii](#): > > > > > > Of course there is residual racism in the U.S., as in every country in the world. > > > > Preecisely. Americans act as if you invented that damn thing. Everybody had it in varying degrees. This whole talk about having a “frank discussion about race” is code word for “we will play the white guilt violin till the end of time”. Frankly, it’s transparent and pathetic. > > How did you come across the ability to read peoples’ minds? You appear to have no interest in an honest discussion with ridiculous rhetoric like this. Because every mention of racism I’ve seen in media had been a case of Black leaders trying to ascribe to racism what could be accounted for something else. Sometimes, it’s just a bald-faced accusation thrown for an intended effect. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/129 "2010-07-28T02:28:36Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > Not analogous at all. Among blacks, women and gays, who got their “complete package” of civil rights first? Blacks. And yet to someone who lives in the third world, blacks appear to whine so much more loudly than is necessary. Heck, gays can’t even marry yet and not only do blacks whine more, they are overrepresented among those who oppose gay marriage. Talk about hypocrisy. > > Imagine what a state we’d be in if there were any black women or gay people, maybe even black lesbians. And your point? I do know that there are black women and black lesbians. It doesn’t change the fact that blacks are overrepresented in their opposition to gay marriage. That’s hypocrisy in my book. ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/130 "2010-07-28T02:29:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > The only time I ever hear racism is raised is when some black person wants to play to white guilt. Nothing legitimate is ever presented that can’t be remedied in the courts. I say, it’s won. Blacks should get over it. > > :rolleyes: Yeah, it’s not like blacks count as people. If some bigoted cops shoot some blacks or they get beaten or harassed for being black, they should just put up with it like good cattle. Yup. That is exactly what I said. Race-bait much? ---
**Author:** ![Anduril](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c0e974/32.png) [@Anduril](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anduril)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/131 "2010-07-28T02:33:09Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > Of course not. They should compare their lives to their white neighbors. The fact that most of them wreck it themselves is their fault. But when I watch documentaries showing black Americans in their most mournful faces about the supposed bigotry that they received - never mind that it’s mostly imaginary - I can’t help but compare their level of despair to those who actually have it so much worse. > > supposed bigotry? mostly imaginary? and you came to this conclusion how? > > I don’t deny that some blacks will use white bigotry as an excuse for their own bad decisions but don’t make that a cover all blanket to deny bigotry that we can do something about. It’s contrary to reality. > > I support personal responsibility for minorities rather than excuses, but while I personally am not responsible for past bigotry I am , as part of this society, responsible for dealing realistically with it’s problems , and that includes our heritage of racism. And let’s be clear, it’s not just being mean or impolite to blacks. It’s a few hundred years of vicious cruelty, and vicious cruelty within the living memories of many citizens. > > I understand the attitude of “I didn’t do it so why is it my problem?” but the answer is, because you live here and you inherited the effects of our history. That doesn’t have to translate into white guilt. It translates into, here we are together at this time. What do we do now, together, as a society to deal with the real issues our history has left for us. > “Get over it” is an okay response if we all participate in that process. Using it as a callus dismissal of real suffering is pretty unimpressive and unrealistic. Then please do enlighten us with this real suffering you speak of. Where is it? Wow!!! This is what I say when I compare african americans to those who ACTUALLY SUFFER. Blacks will continue to be victims if everyone treats them as victims - and as I type that I am fully aware of how laughable that sounds. ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/132 "2010-07-28T02:41:52Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Because every mention of racism I’ve seen in media had been a case of Black leaders trying to ascribe to racism what could be accounted for something else. Sometimes, it’s just a bald-faced accusation thrown for an intended effect. Well there’s your problem. Basing your opinion of blacks off of the media is going to give you a pretty inaccurate picture. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton do not speak for black people, despite the media constantly portraying them as doing so. There is a lot of scholarship on racial issues that does not deal with saying everything is racist. Check out [http://kirwaninstitute.org/](http://kirwaninstitute.org/) and [http://www.race-talk.org/](http://www.race-talk.org/) to start. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/133 "2010-07-28T02:46:49Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > > > The only time I ever hear racism is raised is when some black person wants to play to white guilt. Nothing legitimate is ever presented that can’t be remedied in the courts. I say, it’s won. Blacks should get over it. > > > > :rolleyes: Yeah, it’s not like blacks count as people. If some bigoted cops shoot some blacks or they get beaten or harassed for being black, they should just put up with it like good cattle. > > Yup. That is exactly what I said. Race-bait much? And there’s why you “don’t see any real suffering”. You just deny it when someone points it out. Yes, if you just deny all problems, amazing enough you won’t see any problems. That doesn’t make it a very rational position to take however. ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/134 "2010-07-28T02:48:29Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Then please do enlighten us with this real suffering you speak of. Where is it? Wow!!! This is what I say when I compare african americans to those who ACTUALLY SUFFER. Blacks will continue to be victims if everyone treats them as victims - and as I type that I am fully aware of how laughable that sounds. It would be a wasted effort because your mind is obviously made up already, so I’ll just repost a link from above [here](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/7/12/883698/-Black-Powers-Gonna-Get-You-Sucka:-Right-Wing-Paranoia-and-the-Rhetoric-of-Modern-Racism). ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/135 "2010-07-28T02:48:49Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > A lot of modern blacks live in a separate society. They have terrible schools and getting ahead through education is very difficult. They often live in a dangerous neighborhood and grow up fast . They are pretty damn sure that most of the good things in life are out of their reach. There was a time when you could work in a factory and make a decent living through doing hard and dangerous work. Now that labor of the sort is offshored, they find few opportunities. They see they are not needed any more. Cities they live in are decaying around them. One of the few ways to get ahead is the drug trade. If you start to use ,it is easy to spiral down to the bottom.A lot of blacks just quit trying and spend their lives scrambling for money. That is depressing to think about. I take issue with “one of the few ways to get ahead is the drug trade.” There needs to be a cultural shift within the black community in regards to role models and accepted paths to success. An emphasis on education, providing for your own children, and not victimizing your own people can only come from within the black community. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/136 "2010-07-28T03:03:05Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > Then please do enlighten us with this real suffering you speak of. Where is it? Wow!!! This is what I say when I compare african americans to those who ACTUALLY SUFFER. Blacks will continue to be victims if everyone treats them as victims - and as I type that I am fully aware of how laughable that sounds. > > It would be a wasted effort because your mind is obviously made up already, so I’ll just repost a link from above [here](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/7/12/883698/-Black-Powers-Gonna-Get-You-Sucka:-Right-Wing-Paranoia-and-the-Rhetoric-of-Modern-Racism). My computer almost caught on fire after loading that article, what with all the strawmen in one place. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/137 "2010-07-28T03:12:34Z")
Anduril, It’s all the levels below the legal level - maybe people don’t get that job they’re going for, or the landlord of a house they want to move into suddenly decides against it. There’s a multitude of levels for which you don’t have legal recourse mainly because you don’t have the ironclad proof to take it to court. Yes if someone denies you a job based on your race you have a legal recourse but proving that’s why they didn’t give you the job is impossible 99% of the time. So 99% of the people who didn’t get a job because of their race do not have legal recourse. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/138 "2010-07-28T03:18:31Z")
> [@Anduril](#): > > Then please do enlighten us with this real suffering you speak of. Where is it? Wow!!! This is what I say when I compare african americans to those who ACTUALLY SUFFER. Blacks will continue to be victims if everyone treats them as victims - and as I type that I am fully aware of how laughable that sounds. I think it’s best to avoid getting into pissing contests over who is suffering more because it’s nonproductive at best and divisive at worst. It just doesn’t add anything meaningful to the dialogue. ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/139 "2010-07-28T03:26:25Z")
Forget Frank. We need a [Dave discussion on race.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyQA_8vBy4s) Dave’s [frank discussion about black people and the police.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7F50Cd8LME) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161/140 "2010-07-28T03:32:16Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > > [@Anduril](#): > > > > Then please do enlighten us with this real suffering you speak of. Where is it? Wow!!! This is what I say when I compare african americans to those who ACTUALLY SUFFER. Blacks will continue to be victims if everyone treats them as victims - and as I type that I am fully aware of how laughable that sounds. > > I think it’s best to avoid getting into pissing contests over who is suffering more because it’s nonproductive at best and divisive at worst. It just doesn’t add anything meaningful to the dialogue. Not sure how my name got on that post but it’s not mine. I’d rather you didn’t attribute posts to me I didn’t make. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-a-frank-discussion-on-race/548161.md?page=8)