# Let's have it out ... Faith v. Good Works **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2001, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282 "2001-11-19T21:38:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/1 "2001-11-19T21:38:47Z")
Let’s ignore all the Papist claptrap of Mary veneration and gaudy songs and robes. To my mind, the real beef of Protestants with Roman Catholicism is the faith v. good works necessity for salvation. (Disclaimers: _First_, this thread was inspired by the fundamentalist criticism of Islam mentioned in the OP [here.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=99792) It made it apparent to me that the Protestant dismissal of good works as a means of salvation is not limited to Catholics. _Second,_ I am an atheist lapsed Catholic. Where you think I have a dog in this fight is up to your own interpretation.) OK, to my semi-learned mind, the real beef that Protestants have with “good works” is the idea that some people may be trying to essentially _buy_ their way into Heaven - “Yah, I really wasn’t sure about your existence, JC, but look! I fed 500 starving Ethiopians! I’m in, right?” I see this as an exaggerated, but valid criticism. The concept of indulgences does still exist in the Roman Catholic Church, though much abridged and subject to more rigorous scrutiny. OK, the concept of good works is open to abuse. But – _First_, the RCC has acknowledged that good works alone is not sufficient to get one into Heaven - faith is vital and indeed more important. (If you want a cite, this was explicitly proclaimed by the Vatican within the past year as part of ongoing ecumenical efforts. I will do a Google search, if demanded). _Second_, and more to my point, isn’t the “faith alone” viewpoint just as open to abuse as the “good works” POV? Is the “yeah, sure, you’re starving, but I’ve accepted JC as my personal Lord and Saviour, so I don’t need to do anything for you,” POV just as offensive (if not more so) than the “I’m not sure if God exists, but to cover my bets I’ll toss a few grand to the poor” POV? Sua P.S. Yes, I know that this OP utterly ignores the nuance that is the “faith v. good works” debate. I’m only presenting my impressions from the viewpoint of a relatively educated respectful non-believer. Deal with it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2001, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/2 "2001-11-19T22:19:43Z")
I think the Catholic viewpoint is that if you truly have faith, then good works follow. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/3 "2001-11-20T00:13:35Z")
With only 3 minutes left in this monumental battle, Faith needs to put together a really great round to have any chance of defeating Good Works. Good Works came into this match an overwhelming favorite, but Faith has put up quite a battle this evening. After a knockdown in the 5th, Faith got off to a great start to the next 3 rounds, but Good Works had another knockdown in the 10th. It looks like Faith is going to need a knockout this round to claim the title… ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/4 "2001-11-20T00:21:36Z")
Maybe this is a GQ, but this seems to be the place to ask, anyway. What, precisely, is a _work_. My thought has always been feeding the hungry, caring for the sick and other traditional charitable activities. But I recently read Acts and Romans, and it looks to me that when Paul is talking about works, he’s simply talking about the old Jewish laws. That _works_ are things like keeping kosher, getting circumcized, etc. Am I misreading this thing? ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/5 "2001-11-20T00:22:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I think the Catholic viewpoint is that if you truly have faith, then good works follow. Actually I think this would be the protestant viewpoint. The catholic viewpoint would be that faith is just the start, you need to put that faith into action every day. Catholics believe that faith doesn’t inevitably lead to good works. This is why they make a point of saying that good works are necessary, they can’t just be taken for granted once you have faith. Protestants believe that if you truly have faith then good works will naturally follow. If you do not do good works then you mustn’t have faith. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/6 "2001-11-20T00:41:13Z")
> [@](#): > > What, precisely, is a work. [http://www.catholic.com](http://www.catholic.com) answers a lot of questions on catholic belief. From [a page](http://www.catholic.com/ANSWERS/tracts/_merit.htm) on that site is this quote: > [@](#): > > Paul tells us: “For [God] will reward every man according to his works: to those who by perseverance in working good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; There will be . . . glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality” (Rom. 2:6-11; cf. Gal. 6:6-10). > In the second century, the technical term “merit” was introduced as a synonym for the Greek word for “reward.” Thus the doctrine of merit and the doctrine of reward are the same thing, simply presented under two different terms. > > Protestants often have much confusion about the Catholic understanding of merit, thinking Catholics teach that one must do good works to come to God and be saved. This is exactly the opposite of what the Church teaches. The Council of Trent stressed: “[N]one of those things which precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification; for if it is by grace, it is not now by works; otherwise, as the Apostle [Paul] says, grace is no more grace” (Decree on Justification 8, citing Rom. 11:6). > > Catholic theology distinguishes three types of merit: (1) congruent merit, in which it is fitting for an act to be rewarded, but there is no obligation to do so (as when I hold one door open for you, making it fitting that you hold the next one open for me, though you have no obligation), (2) condign merit, in which one has promised to reward the act, so there is an obligation (as when I promise to give you something if you will loan me a particular book, meaning that once I have the book I have an obligation to give you what I promised), and (3) strict merit, in which there not only is an obligation to reward but value of the act is equal to the value of the reward (as when I promise to give you a given sum of money in exchange for a good or service worth the same amount). > > The Church teaches only Christ is capable of meriting in the strict sense. The most merit humans can have is condign–when, under the impetus of God’s grace, they perform acts which please him and which he has promised to reward (Rom. 2:6-11, Gal. 6:6-10). Thus God’s grace and his promise is the foundation for all human merit (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2007-8). > > Virtually all of this is agreed to by sober Protestants, who recognize that under the impetus of God’s grace, Christians do perform acts which are pleasing to God and which God has promised to reward, meaning that they fit the definition of merit. When faced with this, sober Protestants are forced to admit the truth of the Catholic position, though contrary to Paul’s command (2 Tim. 2:14) they may still quibble with it terminologically. > > Thus the Lutheran Book of Concord admits: “We are not putting forward an empty quibble about the term ‘reward.’ . . . We grant that eternal life is a reward because it is something that is owed–not because of our merits [in the strict sense] but because of the promise [of God]. We have shown above that justification is strictly a gift of God; it is a thing promised. To this gift the promise of eternal life has been added” (p. 162). ---
**Author:** ![straykat23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@straykat23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straykat23)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/7 "2001-11-20T01:30:36Z")
Speaking as another now-atheist, former Catholic, I remember that good works were part of the condition to get into heaven. The Corporal and Spiritual Works of Mercy are offered as specific good deeds that one should practice (list below). The list was part of the catechism that we memorized. The works are to be performed from compassion and to alleviate suffering, not as a method of buying one’s way into heaven. As you can see from the list, there are many that can be performed without monetary expenditure. The corporal works of mercy: To feed the hungry; To give drink to the thirsty; To clothe the naked; To harbour the harbourless; To visit the sick; To ransom the captive; To bury the dead. The spiritual works of mercy: To instruct the ignorant; To counsel the doubtful; To admonish sinners; To bear wrongs patiently; To forgive offences willingly; To comfort the afflicted; To pray for the living and the dead. I remember something about ‘visiting the imprisoned’ but that must have been part of yet another list. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/8 "2001-11-20T03:59:13Z")
The scorn in your heart for the beggar who asks you for your penny weighs ten thousand times as heavily as the silver dollar you give him in your public good works. The sound of your voice, as you speak your righteous admonition of the sins of others is overwhelmed by the whispered prayer they have spoken to the Lord, asking that He lift them up from their bondage to the flesh. The works that bring you to the Lord are those which guide your spirit to love. It is that love which will save you, not a credit account in the Eternal Bank of Hope Springs. Ten thousand gifts given to the poor mean nothing, but a moment holding a weeping wretch in the quiet of his final hour in sinful misery can lift your heart out of the mire of self righteousness. To be loved, you must be willing to love. As you are a sinner, so then are the souls of sinners in your care, as well. Reach out to every soul you meet with love. Pretend each one is the Lord Himself; come to you in quiet, and without grandeur. One day, it will be. There is no dichotomy between faith and works. Have faith. In celebration of your faith, do works. If there is a measurement of either, you will fall short of the Glory of God. Don’t worry. It’s about love. ## Tris “The Way of Heaven is to benefit others and not to injure. The Way of the sage is to act but not to compete.” ~ Lao-tzu ~ ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/9 "2001-11-20T04:24:17Z")
This has come up on this board before. Ultimately the faith v. works debate is a distinction without a difference (speaking as a Protestant). Protestants have real differences with the Roman Catholic Church, but this isn’t one of them. Luther listed all of them at one time. Protestants do not have the intercession of a priest between them and God. Protestants confess directly to God and receive absolution directly from God rather than confessing to a priest. Offhand, I cannot think of a more important difference between the two branches of Christianity. Protestants experience this as a personal relationship with Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Jojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecd19e/32.png) [@Jojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jojo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/10 "2001-11-20T04:46:46Z")
[This was another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=95689) that discussed this recently. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2001, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/11 "2001-11-20T16:06:28Z")
I’ve spoken to this question recently in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1765486#post1765486) and [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1829615#post1829615). Effectively, Christian doctrine, Catholic or Protestant, holds that one is saved by the grace of God mediated through Jesus Christ. One accepts that grace in faith, and commits oneself to the Triune God. Having done so, one is expected to follow His commandments, which emphatically include the “doing of good works.” Apropos quotes from Jesus: > [@](#): > > “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven {will enter.}” (Matthew 7:21 (NASV)) > > 31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me {something} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me {something} to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You {something} to drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 ‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 "The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them,} you did it to Me.’ 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 "Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” (Matthew 25:31-46 (NASV)) Probably sinful of me, but I _do_ look forward to seeing the expressions on a few evangelists that have totally ignored this message and condemned **andygirl** , **Muslim Guy** , and a few dozen others I could name, because they didn’t buy into the evangelists’ theology, at that Day. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kingpengvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9dc877/32.png) [@kingpengvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingpengvin)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2001, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/12 "2001-11-21T16:27:34Z")
Polycarp I agree with you 100%. It always bothered me when the hard core fundamentalist types would say the only way into heaven was accepting J.C. regardless of your sins. I always asked if Hitler accepted J.C. at the last moments would he be in Heaven but if a Hindu man spent his life helping others and in general without knowing it followed many of the christian laws without being christian he would go to hell. after a long pause they would say yes. I have to say if that were the case maybe the company in Hell would have been preferable, but I choose to believe my God would be just in those decisions regarding the afterlife and would look beyond who merely paid him lip service and who did his works without knowing his name. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/13edae/32.png) [@Dewey\_Cheatem\_Undhow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2001, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/13 "2001-11-22T14:30:54Z")
**kingpevin** , I think the Protestant retort to your point would be to say that mere “lip service” won’t get anyone into heaven. A conversion must be a genuine, sincere spiritual experience; merely saying the words won’t get you anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/14 "2001-11-23T02:36:26Z")
To me the concept of faith without good works is simply untenable. What use is faith without the commision of worthy deeds? Furthermore, do not good deeds exemplify faith in its finest form? The forbearance of personal success for the gain of others, the contribution at personal expense towards the betterments of your fellow man. What use is faith if not accompanied, _if not preceded_ by these acts? As a devout agnostic, I have only my own good deeds to reflect upon. My faith is in the inate goodness of mankind and there is the limit of my scope. I cannot bring myself to imagine a Lord or God who would accept a person of faith who was entirely lacking in good deeds. Faith is but windowdressing for the real merchandise of good works. If one is performed the other is merely a confirmation of the same. Good deeds are critical to the enlightenment of the soul. Faith, as exhibited by the Taleban, is no guarantor of decency. I have said many times in the past and will repeat again now; “If I am to be thrown into a lake of fire solely because I did not accept some arbitrary figure of religiosity in favor of devoting my life to the uplifting and betterment of others, I will cheerfully accept that fate. I shall have no desire to share in a heaven of such shallow virtue.” ---
**Author:** ![Masamune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4da419/32.png) [@Masamune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Masamune)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/15 "2001-11-23T06:18:42Z")
Zenster, you beat me to it. Well said, my sentiments exactly. If you lead a good life, helping others and bettering the world and race as a whole, I couldn’t think of any God as described by any religion that would scorn you, whether or not you had “faith” in that particular God. Doing good is an expression of faith, regardless of cultural idiosyncrasies. Faith in humanity if not in God. This all falls apart, of course, if God is a nutball- which many evangelicals _Cough Jack Chick Cough_ make him out to be. But that is a subject for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Philosophocles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Philosophocles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philosophocles)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/16 "2001-11-23T06:35:30Z")
Dietrich Bonhoeffer worked out a compromise with his theological discussion of cheap grace vs. costly grace–i.e. that there is no true partaking of grace without discipleship. The Epistle of James also speaks against drawing a sharp dichotomy between faith and works. (perhaps this is why Martin Luther believed this book should never have become part of the canon…but the modern fundamentalist approach is simply to ignore this epistle altogether) In the Old Testament, the notion of repentance (t’shuvah) was thought of as a “turning away” from the path of iniquity–not just a change in doctrinal belief, but more fundamentally, a change in one’s way of living. Repentance could occur on an individual or communal level, but the basic idea was a “turning away”. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/17 "2001-11-23T06:51:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Masamune \* > **Zenster, you beat me to it. Well said, my sentiments exactly.** Thank you so much for your kind words, **Masamune**. Please allow me to officially welcome you to these boards. I look forward to some of your own posts. ---
**Author:** ![ssj\_man2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ssj\_man2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssj_man2k)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/18 "2001-11-23T07:13:35Z")
I’d have to say good works goes over faith. Like zenster said, what use is faith without good works? I always thought it would be ridiculous if you could get into heavan without at least being nice. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2001, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/19 "2001-11-23T15:27:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philosophocles \* > \*\* > In the Old Testament, the notion of repentance (t’shuvah) was thought of as a “turning away” from the path of iniquity–not just a change in doctrinal belief, but more fundamentally, a change in one’s way of living. \*\* You are correct **Philosophocles**. In Judaism, _t’shuvah_ has several components, one of which is called _azivas ha-cheit_, (literally: leaving the sin) where you determine not to do that sin again. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2001, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282/20 "2001-11-24T23:02:16Z")
He who believes in me shall never die, but shall have life everlasting. That is the promise of putting faith in God and following Jesus. Now, what does that mean in light of the fact that our bodies do in fact die without exception? It means that we are born anew into a life that has an everlasting quality, if you believe and follow. There are great rewards in serving those in need as Jesus did. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-have-it-out-faith-v-good-works/94282.md?page=2)