# Let's imagine for a moment that there was no colonization **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 17, 2022, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955 "2022-01-17T22:50:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/41 "2022-01-18T17:58:07Z")
> [@PozhanPop](#): > > Oops, that should have read , animals that are presently extinct or very close to it. Europeans certainly don’t have a monopoly on driving critters to extinction… ---
**Author:** ![PozhanPop](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pozhanpop/32/8022_2.png) [@PozhanPop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PozhanPop)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2022, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/42 "2022-01-18T19:45:33Z")
> [@Tusculan](#): > > Was the rise of science in the modern word made possible by the influx of wealth that allowed leisure for an intellectual class? Did the exposure to other cultures speed up enlightenment and agnosticism? And what was the effect of the massive influx of specie on the premodern economy of Europe? This is something that always I’ve wondered about as well. What was behind the age of enlightenment and the massive strides in scientific thinking and resultant discoveries, music and arts. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2022, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/43 "2022-01-18T22:46:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why are you characterizing wars between monarchic city-states as “tribal wars”, please? Because I’m a racist? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/44 "2022-01-19T05:15:23Z")
I’m pointing out that the language used to refer to the victims of colonialism is often _heavily_ loaded. Nobody refers to Rome vs Carthage or Athens vs Sparta as “tribal violence”, but you’ll happily use it when referring to the Mexican inter-state wars and not think twice about it. And when this is questioned, snark is the only response you have. Because you know it’s actually indefensible. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/45 "2022-01-19T05:48:47Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Most indigenous peoples weren’t living in harmony with one another let alone with nature. The Maori engaged in violent warfare with one another long before Europeans arrived and if you lived in what is now Mexico you probably wouldn’t have wanted the Aztecs as your neighbors Indeed, the Zulu were invading South Africa from the North as the Boers were settling from the South. And.. then came the British.. The Indian subcontinent was subject to several invasions, one of those from this dude called Alex (maybe you have heard of him?), long before the British colonized it. The area of Melbourne was home to about 20K natives before the British came in. _Comparatively_ (to the massive wars of aggression and conquest, in the Americans and Africa) it was more or less peaceful. The Maori wiped out many species of megafauna by hunting withing a couple of centuries after their arrival, so much for living in _harmony with nature ._ The NA (in what is currently USA and Canada) natives used to have “buffalo jumps” where they’d kill hundreds of bison, taking only the humps and the tongue, leaving the rest to rot. At least there the wars were more limited. > [@MrDibble](#): > > You’re phrasing this as though development into urban agricultural states is some inevitability. _The Dawn of Everything_ , already cited above, takes some pains to show this is not the case. Yes, but one speculative and disputed book does not make it so. Many experts in the field are not in agreement. > **[The Dawn of Everything](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawn_of_Everything)** > > The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity is a 2021 book by the anthropologist David Graeber and the archaeologist David Wengrow. > Describing the diversity of early human societies, the book critiques traditional narratives of history's linear development from primitivism to civilization. Instead, The Dawn of Everything posits that humans lived in large, complex, but decentralized polities for millennia. The book suggests that social emancipation can be found in a more accurate unders... _While wondering whether a book that “hypothesizes confidently in the face of scant or confusing evidence, can be trusted”, historian [Daniel Immerwahr](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Immerwahr) described the book as “a work of dizzying ambition”… Anthropologist [Chris Knight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Knight_(anthropologist)) called The Dawn of Everything “incoherent and wrong” for beginning “far too late” and “systematically side-stepping the cultural flowering that began in Africa tens of thousands of years before Homo sapiens arrived in Europe”,… Philosopher [Kwame Anthony Appiah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwame_Anthony_Appiah) argued in [The New York Review of Books](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Review_of_Books) that there is a “discordance between what the book says and what its sources say”, but also that the book, which is “chockablock with archaeological and ethnographic minutiae, is an oddly gripping read”…The Princeton historian David A. Bell, responding solely to Graeber and Wengrow’s argument about the Indigenous origins of Enlightenment social thought, accused the authors of coming "perilously close to scholarly malpractice_ ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/46 "2022-01-19T05:53:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but one speculative and disputed book does not make it so. The major thesis in the book may be disputed, the facts about cultures it is based on are not. There were many different models of organization that were followed, including different development paths. That is not in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/47 "2022-01-19T05:59:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > the Zulu were invading South Africa from the North as the Boers were settling from the South. I wanted to deal with this separately - this is not accurate at all. The Zulu nation was an indigenous South African development, they were not “invading from the North”. This is perilously close to bullshit invented histories developed by the Apartheid government to justify themselves. It’s true that Bantu people overall arrived in South Africa from further north, but this happened _way_ before the Boers moved away from the Cape (like, a millennium-and-a-half before), and as to whether it was an “invasion”, that’s still very much undecided. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/48 "2022-01-19T06:23:31Z")
Yes, they came from what is now called **KwaZulu-Natal** , which is in South Africa now. But the Zulu empire became quite a bit larger and conquered other lands You are not saying that the Zulu Empire didn’t do quite a bit of warfare, invasions, and conquering are you? They bumped up against the Boers coming from the South, no? I suppose “the Zulu were invading from the Northern of South Africa” would be a better phrase. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/49 "2022-01-19T06:31:18Z")
Are you trying for a repeat of the whole Simon’s Town affair? I don’t need you explaining South African history wrongly to me, a South African with an archaeology major, based off some frantic googling. > [@DrDeth](#): > > You are not saying that the Zulu Empire didn’t do quite a bit of warfare, invasions, and conquering are you? No, I’m not. But they did it strictly in KwaZulu. Also, not an empire. The Zulu head is styled “King” and it’s called the Zulu Kingdom. Yes, Wiki will tell you it’s sometimes called that. Nobody here seriously calls it that. Some of the people they defeated then went on to invade and conquer elsewhere (chiefly _ **northwards** _), but the Zulu kingdom, themselves, stuck to KwaZulu. Some fled south, but they _assimilated_ into the Xhosa peoples, they didn’t conquer them. > [@DrDeth](#): > > They bumped up against the Boers coming from the South, no? No. They stayed in place, consolidating their conquests, and the Boers came to _their_ territory. They didn’t do any kind of “meet in the middle” deal. > [@DrDeth](#): > > I suppose “the Zulu were invading from the Northern of South Africa” would be a better phrase. There’s a _whole_ lot of South Africa north of KwaZulu. They were more in the middle, as far as latitude goes. So, for instance, the Boers came to KwaZulu from the north, not the south. This illustrates your ignorance of the topic you’re choosing to lecture a native on. Again. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/50 "2022-01-19T13:21:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And when this is questioned, snark is the only response you have. Because you know it’s actually indefensible. You asked in a snarky way so you got the snarky answer you deserved. Had you started out by pointing out that the language used to refer to the victims of colonialism was often heavily loaded I would have agreed and replied in a different manner. Anyway, I didn’t mean to refer to the Aztecs as tribal. But between reading the OP and replying it just slipped out. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/51 "2022-01-19T13:26:45Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > You asked in a snarky way > [@MrDibble](#): > > Why are you characterizing wars between monarchic city-states as “tribal wars”, please? Your snark-o-meter is broken. I even said “please”, and meant it. > [@Odesio](#): > > Anyway, I didn’t mean to refer to the Aztecs as tribal. But between reading the OP and replying it just slipped out. Fair enough. Personally, I wouldn’t use it for _any_ people in an anthropological context anymore, as that’s [the growing trend in the field.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe#Controversy_and_usage_depreciation) ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/52 "2022-01-19T13:35:01Z")
I believe the definition colonization is the movement of people from one area to another. This is separate from the movement of goods and most importantly ideas from one area to another. With this definition of colonization, I don’t think the history of the world would be that different. For example, look at China. Certainly there was no western colonization in China. Westerners certainly visited and some lived there, but no self-sustaining colonies of westerners ever took root. Central Asians of course repeatedly colonized China, but they were the only ones. Chinese culture and civilization was profoundly changed by ideas and goods (primarily foods) from other parts of the world. Certainly colonization from Central Asia was a major factor in the history of China, but not in countries like Japan. Ideas on the other hand, moved quickly and had a major impact everywhere. If there had been no movement of people from Europe and Africa to the Americas, but ideas and goods did travel, the most powerful ideas would have changed the Americas almost as much as the colonization did. Again, the evidence for this is the huge impact goods and ideas from the Americas had on Europe. Mostly foods, but there are fascinating speculations that Native American governance concepts influenced the age of enlightenment in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/53 "2022-01-19T13:56:58Z")
> [@rbroome](#): > > Certainly there was no western colonization in China. There very much was. Have you ever heard of Hong Kong? Macau? The Opium Wars? The Boxer Rebellion? > [@rbroome](#): > > no self-sustaining colonies of westerners ever took root. That is not necessary for it to be considered colonialism. [Settler colonialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism) is not the only sort of colonialism. And I don’t know what the [concessions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concessions_in_China) were, if not colonies. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/54 "2022-01-19T14:47:09Z")
I’m currently reading and very much enjoying _The Dawn of Everything_, and I’m very pleased to see it come up in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/55 "2022-01-19T16:19:46Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Without transoceanic voyages, I doubt Oceana (Hawaii, Easter Island, Tonga, Samoa, Gilligan’s Island, etc.) would have been populated. Or even New Zealand and Australia. Australia would have been populated without trans-oceanic voyages. There were most likely some trans-strait or trans-sea boat trips, depending on the sea levels when the original inhabitation occurred, which may have been lower due to an ice age. But even today, it’s possible to hopscotch from Australia to Asia without crossing more than 200 kilometres of open water at a time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/56 "2022-01-19T16:26:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you trying for a repeat of the whole Simon’s Town affair? I don’t need you explaining South African history wrongly to me, a South African with an archaeology major, based off some frantic googling. I have read The Washing of the Spears, have you? But fair enough, I won’t comment on anything South African, if you won’t comment on anything American. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/57 "2022-01-19T16:36:29Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@rbroome](#): > > > > no self-sustaining colonies of westerners ever took root. > > That is not necessary for it to be considered colonialism. [Settler colonialism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settler_colonialism) is not the only sort of colonialism. And I don’t know what the [concessions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concessions_in_China) were, if not colonies. That is what came in to post. People who were educated in the U.S. tend to think of colonization as a type of migration. That was the initial form in what would become the U.S., made possible by the indigenous depopulation. But colonization is more generally a type of imperialism (I’m not clear on their distinction anymore), where outside forces usurp or supplant existing authorities. Migration may or may not be part of colonization. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/58 "2022-01-19T16:58:07Z")
How far back are we going with “no colonization?” Do the English never go into Ireland? Do the Normans never go into England? Do the Moors conquer Spain? Was there a Roman Empire? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/59 "2022-01-19T17:03:55Z")
It went down-hill after the Akkadians usurped the Sumerians. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955/60 "2022-01-19T17:21:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I have read The Washing of the Spears, have you? _The Washing of the Spears_ is long outdated. It was published in 1965, and written by someone who had never even visited South Africa. Historical knowledge and scholarship have moved on, and it’s better to rely on more recent and more authoritative books. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-imagine-for-a-moment-that-there-was-no-colonization/957955.md?page=4)