# Let's improve how we play "Mafia." **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 8, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501 "2012-06-08T14:34:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/41 "2012-06-08T17:39:42Z")
_shrug_ You should come rail some games at my main site, sachertorte. I suspect your opinion about the relative proportion of luck vs. skill might change. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/42 "2012-06-08T17:42:09Z")
I want to talk about Voting mechanics. I see two big problems: (a) The earliest votes on Day 1 are very difficult, often literally coming from [Random.org](http://Random.org); (b) Last-minute vote switches are troublesome. They mean that early votes can be pretense, but more importantly put at a disadvantage Players who cannot be on-line a few minutes before EOD. It would be nice to find mechanical ways to address these problems. Day 1 voting in mafia reminds me of the need for blind bets (or antes) in Poker! (Without blind bets to make a pot non-zero, any first bet in Poker – on less than a Royal Flush – is game-theoretically unsound.) I don’t know what the solution to these problems is. One approach might be to give a Player a maximum of, say, 4 Votes and 2 Unvotes per Day (with, say, the 4th Vote allowed only after an Unvote). Failure to vote on the first day of a Day might cost a Player a Vote or an Unvote. On the last day of a Day, a Player would be allowed only 1 Vote and 1 Unvote. Potential Lynchees would have to claim while Players were capable of Unvoting. That sounds too complicated. :dubious: Perhaps there’s a simpler mechanic to address my concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/43 "2012-06-08T17:42:12Z")
Oh, that reminds me of another thing. Because so much of the result of the game is “random” due to interactions among the players, the designer/moderator should not put any additional randomness into the game. (Other than the initial role assignments.) No breaking lynch ties by a coin flip. No random chance that a power will fail. No random targeting of powers. Everything should be determined by either the choice of one or more players, or something predictable from in-game information. The players should have no one to blame except themselves for the outcome of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/44 "2012-06-08T17:49:32Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I want to talk about Voting mechanics. I see two big problems: > (a) The earliest votes on Day 1 are very difficult, often literally coming from [Random.org](http://Random.org); > (b) Last-minute vote switches are troublesome. They mean that early votes can be pretense, but more importantly put at a disadvantage Players who cannot be on-line a few minutes before EOD. > It would be nice to find mechanical ways to address these problems. As long as who voted for who is open to all to see (that is, no vote powers meddling things), I don’t see this as a problem for the game designer to solve. Players can hold accountable those players who do tricky things at the last minute. For hidden actions (like most powers), players should be able to give orders contingent on publicly knowable facts. Like “If X is going to be lynched, I use my Day power on Y, otherwise I use it on Z”. Because a player is constantly online will know who will be lynched and could change their action at the last second to reflect that. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/45 "2012-06-08T17:49:37Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > _shrug_ > > You should come rail some games at my main site, sachertorte. I suspect your opinion about the relative proportion of luck vs. skill might change. If you say the games on your site are strongly skill-based then I’m willing to take your word. I have no information regarding game setup or general modus operandi for sites or games where I have not participated. I only speak for my experiences and from what I see, mafia games are strongly luck-based. Not SOLEY luck-based, but luck plays a big role none-the-less. I think denying that fact leads to unnecessary angst and frustration. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/46 "2012-06-08T17:53:55Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > If you say the games on your site are strongly skill-based then I’m willing to take your word. I have no information regarding game setup or general modus operandi for sites or games where I have not participated. I only speak for my experiences and from what I see, mafia games are strongly luck-based. Not SOLEY luck-based, but luck plays a big role none-the-less. I think denying that fact leads to unnecessary angst and frustration. [Here you go.](http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/59/puzzles-other-games/) It’s a site full of poker players. Many people there think about this game in a very deep and analytical, often math-based way. Check out the WW Poker Vanilla+ on the first page that just finished today, if you want to see an example of some stellar scum play. (I’m in that game, too.) There is variance in Mafia/werewolf, of course. That does not mean that luck predominates over skill. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/47 "2012-06-08T17:58:36Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Last-minute vote switches are troublesome. While true, I think we worry about the possibility of a last-minute vote switch way more often than such a switch is an actual threat. My previous mode of moderation was to set a hard deadline and say that no votes after that time count. I would change this to say that Day will end at between the hours of 16:00 and 20:00. All votes before 16:00 will certainly count. All votes up to the previously unannounced End of Day will also count. Votes after the surprise end of Day will not count. Ostensibly, everyone will try to enforce the 16:00 deadline. Any shenanigans would be discouraged since there is an unknown amount of time for the shenanigans to be discovered and countered. In other words, since scum don’t know what end of day is to the precise minute, they can’t coordinate a vote switch without _significant_ risk of getting caught. My goal would be to eliminate vote-switch-worry, not just vote-switch-shenanigans. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/48 "2012-06-08T18:02:45Z")
Seriously **Gaderene** , what do you want me to say? You are _master_ of Mafia, your skill is obvious. I was a fool to think that luck could have anything to do with your ability to win mafia. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/49 "2012-06-08T18:06:49Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I would change this to say that Day will end at between the hours of 16:00 and 20:00. All votes before 16:00 will certainly count. All votes up to the previously unannounced End of Day will also count. Votes after the surprise end of Day will not count. Great mechanic! I get a sense of déjà vu from the description. I know I’ve seen that exact mechanic before but can’t remember where; perhaps not even in an obvious “game-playing” context. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/50 "2012-06-08T18:07:40Z")
**vote sach** ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/51 "2012-06-08T18:08:30Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > My previous mode of moderation was to set a hard deadline and say that no votes after that time count. I would change this to say that Day will end at between the hours of 16:00 and 20:00. All votes before 16:00 will certainly count. All votes up to the previously unannounced End of Day will also count. Votes after the surprise end of Day will not count. > > Ostensibly, everyone will try to enforce the 16:00 deadline. Any shenanigans would be discouraged since there is an unknown amount of time for the shenanigans to be discovered and countered. In other words, since scum don’t know what end of day is to the precise minute, they can’t coordinate a vote switch without _significant_ risk of getting caught. > > My goal would be to eliminate vote-switch-worry, not just vote-switch-shenanigans. This is _brilliant_; it’s going directly into any game I design from now until eternity. I love it. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/52 "2012-06-08T18:11:04Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > This is _brilliant_; it’s going directly into any game I design from now until eternity. I love it. The added bonus is it gives the moderator some breathing room before everyone gets all “Is it Night yet?” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/53 "2012-06-08T18:12:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Pleonast** : > > For hidden actions (like most powers), players should be able to give orders contingent on publicly knowable facts. Like “If X is going to be lynched, I use my Day power on Y, otherwise I use it on Z”. Because a player is constantly online will know who will be lynched and could change their action at the last second to reflect that. I don’t quite agree with this. Players should be able to give contingent orders based only on information that’s knowable strictly before the deadline, as if they were actually giving the order directly. If I submit my order one minute before the deadline, I don’t actually _know_ who the lynch is going to be, because there could be a literal last-minute vote swing. I can say I have a very strong belief in who the lynch is going to be, but that’s not something hard and objective. > [@](#): > > Quoth **sachertorte** : > > My previous mode of moderation was to set a hard deadline and say that no votes after that time count. I would change this to say that Day will end at between the hours of 16:00 and 20:00. All votes before 16:00 will certainly count. All votes up to the previously unannounced End of Day will also count. Votes after the surprise end of Day will not count. Personally, I think that the possibility of last-minute shenanigans is an important part of the game. It’s valid for the Scum to try to collaborate to openly lynch someone at the last minute, and if the game has gotten to the point where that can swing the outcome, then Town has earned the loss by allowing it to get that far. Just because Town worries about something doesn’t mean it’s a problem for the game: If it did, then we’d make games with no Scum at all and just declare everyone a winner. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/54 "2012-06-08T18:16:42Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Seriously **Gaderene** , what do you want me to say? > You are _master_ of Mafia, your skill is obvious. I was a fool to think that luck could have anything to do with your ability to win mafia. When I’m talking about people who are fantastic at this game, I’m not talking about myself. When I pointed you to that game for an example of stellar scum play, I wasn’t talking about myself. I was Town that game. We lost. You’re misinterpreting me. I’m above-average at best, and it varies based on my energy level. But I know at least a few dozen people who are genuinely insanely good at Werewolf, and you’re doing a disservice to them by saying that luck by far plays the biggest role. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/55 "2012-06-08T18:17:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If it did, then we’d make games with no Scum at all and just declare everyone a winner. Funniest game ever! I think vote shenanigans have a place in mafia, and town should potentially be punished for being indecisive. It seems unfair that town’s primary method of solving the game should be out of their control. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/56 "2012-06-08T18:19:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I think that the possibility of last-minute shenanigans is an important part of the game. It’s valid for the Scum to try to collaborate to openly lynch someone at the last minute, and if the game has gotten to the point where that can swing the outcome, then Town has earned the loss by allowing it to get that far. Just because Town worries about something doesn’t mean it’s a problem for the game: If it did, then we’d make games with no Scum at all and just declare everyone a winner. My view is that Mafia is NOT a real-time game and should not be treated as such. With players literally from around the world, conferring an advantage to those players online during end of day is, in my opinion, undesirable. Scum certainly could coordinate openly during the day. I’m only saying that they should not get the benefit of a known End of Day deadline to prevent Town from reacting to it. For games with Night Talk, I would employ a similar secret deadline to remove the advantage of a Cop Claim just before Dawn. ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/57 "2012-06-08T18:20:18Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Funniest game ever! > > I think vote shenanigans have a place in mafia, and town should potentially be punished for being indecisive. It seems unfair that town’s primary method of solving the game should be out of their control. It actually would not be out of their control. All Town has to do is agree by mutual consensus that they will not vote after the initial time, and that anyone who does will be regarded with suspicion. This is entirely in Town control. You get extra time, during which you can discuss, strategize, whatever, but if you choose to use it to vote, you takes your chances. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/58 "2012-06-08T18:22:49Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I want to talk about Voting mechanics. I see two big problems: > (a) The earliest votes on Day 1 are very difficult, often literally coming from [Random.org](http://Random.org) Hey, I’ve only done that twice! 🙂 My biggest gripe today is the fact that it does seem to me that personal attacks are becoming more frequent, and more an more often people seem to be forgetting that it’s “just a game”…the amount of raised tempers in the last several games has been astounding to me…not just here on the Dope, but also on the Idle and Giraffe boards. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/59 "2012-06-08T18:30:50Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > While true, I think we worry about the possibility of a last-minute vote switch way more often than such a switch is an actual threat. > > My previous mode of moderation was to set a hard deadline and say that no votes after that time count. I would change this to say that Day will end at between the hours of 16:00 and 20:00. All votes before 16:00 will certainly count. All votes up to the previously unannounced End of Day will also count. Votes after the surprise end of Day will not count. > > Ostensibly, everyone will try to enforce the 16:00 deadline. Any shenanigans would be discouraged since there is an unknown amount of time for the shenanigans to be discovered and countered. In other words, since scum don’t know what end of day is to the precise minute, they can’t coordinate a vote switch without _significant_ risk of getting caught. > > My goal would be to eliminate vote-switch-worry, not just vote-switch-shenanigans. Please do this, and soon! Personally, I love ‘non-standard’ rulesets. Multiple locations, changing powers, lack of reveals, multiple recruitments…bring 'em on! I derive as much pleasure from figuring out the ‘secrets’ of the game as I do from ‘winning’…and I think it helps keep all of the players engaged when they all (regardless of faction) need to spend time and energy solving whatever mysteries the Mods have thrown at them. I think some people don’t like such mechanics because “it’s not Mafia”, but I don’t agree. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501/60 "2012-06-08T18:31:40Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > It actually would not be out of their control. All Town has to do is agree by mutual consensus that they will not vote after the initial time, and that anyone who does will be regarded with suspicion. This is entirely in Town control. You get extra time, during which you can discuss, strategize, whatever, but if you choose to use it to vote, you takes your chances. Not a bad point. This and the “asynchronous play” angle have convinced me. I retract my objection. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-improve-how-we-play-mafia/624501.md?page=4)