# Let's just call them all civil unions. If you want to get married, go to a church. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 3, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326 "2012-08-03T17:58:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/21 "2012-08-03T19:30:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What about atheists, like myself, who want to get married? As an officiant of the Universal Life Church I would consider it an honor to solemnize your vows. As long as the reception includes an open bar.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/22 "2012-08-03T19:31:32Z")
Do we have to retroactively change all the songs and poems and movies and stuff? “Peggy Sue Got Civil-Unioned,” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/23 "2012-08-03T19:40:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, you think the solution to marriage discrimination against gays is to replace it with marriage discrimination against atheists? We had this discussion in another thread recently. I suggested something roughly similar to the OP and got fairly seriously trashed for it. Time Magazine published in interview with Gore Vidal a few years back. One of questions they asked was about his views on same-sex marriage. I liked his answer: Straight marriage is such a disaster of an institution, why would anyone else want to imitate it? (Not sure if I’m remembering the exact words right, but I’m sure I’m getting the gist and tone right.) ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/24 "2012-08-03T19:54:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What about atheists, like myself, who want to get married? Just get a civil union. It has all the same benefits. Who cares what it’s called as long as everyone as access to it? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/25 "2012-08-03T19:57:49Z")
The notion that marriage is a religious institution is simply ridiculous. Religions have rituals for marriage, but they didn’t invent marriage, any more than holding funerals means they invented dying. Marriage is a civil institution. If you want to call civil marriage a “civil union”, then knock yourself the fuck out. But what exactly is the point? A civil union is a marriage. A mass ctrl-c/ctrl-v to replace “marriage” in all legal documents with “civil union” doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t solve anything. Oh, you think that if government doesn’t call marriage “marriage” then the Religious Right will shrug their shoulders and say, hey, as long as you call it “civil unions” then we’re cool with gays marrying each other? I am an atheist. I am married. I had a wedding. I have a wife. I don’t have a civil union, I didn’t have a partnering ceremony, I don’t have a civil partner. You don’t need a goddam Unitarian officiant to get married. Atheists get married. God doesn’t marry people, people marry each other. You never hear Christians claiming that Japanese or Indians or Chinese or godless Europeans aren’t really married because they weren’t married in a Christian ceremony. Human beings have practiced marriage before the invention of Christianity, before the invention of monotheism, before the invention of agriculture, and very likely before the evolution of anatomically modern _Homo sapiens_. Christians can’t keep non-Christians from getting married any more than they get to keep non-Christians from getting born or dying. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/26 "2012-08-03T20:04:46Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Just get a civil union. It has all the same benefits. Who cares what it’s called as long as everyone as access to it? Separate but equal has been deemed unconstitutional. Civil unions are not equal. Few, if any, are recognized across state lines and are not available in all states. Even where CUs are valid, they don’t always afford the same benefits as marriage and are not recognized at the federal level. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/27 "2012-08-03T20:16:30Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > Separate but equal has been deemed unconstitutional. Civil unions are not equal. Few, if any, are recognized across state lines and are not available in all states. > > Even where CUs are valid, they don’t always afford the same benefits as marriage and are not recognized at the federal level. Did you not read the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/28 "2012-08-03T20:28:30Z")
Why should the civil marriage get the crappier description? The term “civil union” was invented with the sole purpose of giving same-sex unions the taint of inferiority (if nobody had cared about ranking same-sex unions, then they would have just called them marriages from the very beginning). Why would anybody want to extend a _bad_ thing to everybody? > [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > Yep. Hell, a lot of countries do it this way routinely. You go to some kind of government office for the legal portion, then have the “real” wedding at the church (if you like). Which countries officially degrade civil marriage as inferior to “real” religious marriages? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/29 "2012-08-03T20:35:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What about atheists, like myself, who want to get married? So… you’re an Atheist but you still want the blessing of the imaginary sky wizzard? What the heck are you talking about **Miller**? ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/30 "2012-08-03T20:52:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Marriage is a civil institution. If you want to call civil marriage a “civil union”, then knock yourself the fuck out. But what exactly is the point? A civil union is a marriage. A mass ctrl-c/ctrl-v to replace “marriage” in all legal documents with “civil union” doesn’t mean anything. It doesn’t solve anything. > > Oh, you think that if government doesn’t call marriage “marriage” then the Religious Right will shrug their shoulders and say, hey, as long as you call it “civil unions” then we’re cool with gays marrying each other? The point is, Christians would no longer be able to use the trite argument that the government is trying to redefine marriage. In my OP, the only people who would define it are the Churches and the like. > [@](#): > > I am an atheist. I am married. I had a wedding. I have a wife. I don’t have a civil union, I didn’t have a partnering ceremony, I don’t have a civil partner. You don’t need a goddam Unitarian officiant to get married. Atheists get married. God doesn’t marry people, people marry each other. And you’d still be able to call you wife, your wife. (or whatever the hell you want.) Do you think you have a constitutional right that the government call your wife a wife? Also, there is nothing in the OP that would prohibit you from getting married. Unless you’re suggesting that churches should be forced to marry people that doesn’t go along with their dogmatic views. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/31 "2012-08-03T21:07:44Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > The point is, Christians would no longer be able to use the trite argument that the government is trying to redefine marriage. Except that marriage is _currently_ defined, by law, as a civil institution. So your plan to stop Christians from claiming the government is trying to redefine marriage… is to have the government redefine marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/32 "2012-08-03T21:15:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Except that marriage is _currently_ defined, by law, as a civil institution. > > So your plan to stop Christians from claiming the government is trying to redefine marriage… is to have the government redefine marriage. In most states, the government defines marriage as one man one woman. Making governmnent get out of the marriage business all together is not redefing marriage. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/33 "2012-08-03T21:22:39Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > So… you’re an Atheist but you still want the blessing of the imaginary sky wizzard? > What the heck are you talking about **Miller**? No, he wants to get married. Neither the concept of marriage, nor the word “marriage” specifically, was invented by Christians. (The word is ultimately from the Latin _maritus_ and has prehistoric roots.) ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/34 "2012-08-03T21:26:38Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > No, he wants to get married. Neither the concept of marriage, nor the word “marriage” specifically, was invented by Christians. (The word is ultimately from the Latin _maritus_ and has prehistoric roots.) He still could. What’s stopping him? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/35 "2012-08-03T21:29:50Z")
[My rant on this topic from a while back.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=588844) ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/36 "2012-08-03T21:41:16Z")
I think the confusion is compounded by the fact that so many non-government employees in the USA are empowered to perform marriages. This blus the line between the civil and religous meanings of the word. The legal marriage should be performed by a government employee, in a government building if necessary e.g. it happens when you take out the license.) Religious unions can have their own rules. And BTW I favor the terminology of “marriage” for the legal union and “religious union” for the religious ceremony, instead of the OP’s proposal. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/37 "2012-08-03T21:45:54Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > He still could. What’s stopping him? Well, your proposal, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/38 "2012-08-03T21:50:33Z")
Shakes is saying let’s remove all constraints from marriage. Joe and John Blow can do whatever they feel is necessary and boom, they’re married. It doesn’t mean anything legally, for that, they’d need a civil union. But the same rules apply to Beth and Tommy Doe. Marriage would be up to the couple to define how they see fit. Miller wants marriage to remain the legally protected term with a checklist one must meet in order to earn the right to call oneself married. Is that clearer? ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/39 "2012-08-03T21:56:22Z")
I don’t think it’s clearer. There are no constraints on non-governmental marriage now. I can find a Universal Life minister to marry me to three women, two men, and a dog. Or a Unitarian Universalist minister to perform a same-sex marriage. What Shakes is saying is that the government should no longer use the word marriage for the legal union. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/40 "2012-08-03T22:04:06Z")
Oddly, the term “marriage” does have a real, and valued, meaning to people regardless of whether they subscribe to a given religious belief, and one that is vitally important to nearly every aspect of civil law. A marriage is the commitment of two people to come together as spouses, as each other’s helpmeet, and establish a new household and family. This usually but not aleays entails their living together, their engaging in sexual relations, and their raising of children. if done purely as a commitment between the two, we term it a common-law marriage. If done in accordance with whatever standards the state may set for contracting such a marriage, we term it a civil marriage. If the prospective couple holds a religious belief and wishes their marriage to be blessed by the deity of their choice, through His, Her or Its priestly representatives, we call this a religious marroage. Inventing a new term to precisely replace one that has been in existence and use for several centuries seems to me to be the height of ridiculousness. And conceding to the American Religious Right the authority to define who can be “married” is surrendering something valuable to many people not affiliated with them – including, for example, my church, which sees no issue with SSM. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326.md?page=3)