# Let's just call them all civil unions. If you want to get married, go to a church. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 3, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326 "2012-08-03T17:58:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Curiosity\_Kills\_Her](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Curiosity\_Kills\_Her](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Curiosity_Kills_Her)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/101 "2012-08-05T00:41:12Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Separate is _not_ equal (and equal is not sugar). Funny enough to deserve its own quote box. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/102 "2012-08-05T04:06:45Z")
As others have pointed out, a great many anti-SSM people would strenuously protest the OP’s argument. Most anti-SSM bigots want to deny gay people all of rights that even _approximate_ the rights given by marriage. Although some states are moving towards gay marriage or civil unions (that are separate and **not** equal), there are also quite a few states that have not only banned gay marriage, they have also taken steps to ban even unequal civil unions, and even banning gay people from privately making their own legal arrangements that are even vaguely similar to marriage. So the OP’s proposal would please almost no one. It “wrecks” the word marriage for many people, adding fuel to the anti-SSM fire who claim that gays are out to destroy marriage. It wrongly concedes the word marriage to the Religious Right, who has no valid claim on “owning” what that word means. Marriage was around long before Christianity got involved in it. Many gay and/or atheist people would want to be married, without having to have a second and unnecessary ceremony and expense, just to placate the bigots (who still wouldn’t be happy with it). Most people who are anti-SSM are so not just because of the word “marriage”, but because they want to disallow gays from having any of the rights that marriage entails. I think it’s funny that some people who are in favor of the OP’s position say that others who are pro-gay marriage are “just arguing over semantics”. Well, if it’s really just semantics and therefore unimportant, then I think it would be better to be on the right side of history and piss off the bigots, rather than affecting everyone else who wants to get married, and also having to undergo the huge hassel and legal expense changing all the legislation and regulations surrounding marriage (to be legal, they’d all have to be changed individually, and make sure you don’t forget any). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/103 "2012-08-05T04:54:06Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Nothing besides, property rights for the spouse, insurance, tax benifts, etc… It’s more likely that they’ll lose what rights they already have in the massive backlash. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Nonsense. [Plenty of churches perform gay marriages](http://gayweddinginstitute.com/_blog/Gay_Weddings_are_Good_for_Business/post/Which_Churches_Allow_Gay_Marriage/): Which don’t matter since they aren’t real marriages. Only a marriage by the state is real. Again; a churches opinion only matters to the members of that church, and is meaningless to outsiders. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Government can protect the rights afforded to civil unions, the same as they do for marriage now. Rights which would be less than what marriage now affords, and come at the price of a massive backlash against homosexuals. They’d be less worried about marriage than they would be about not getting beaten to death. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/104 "2012-08-05T07:58:06Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > Just get a civil union. It has all the same benefits. Who cares what it’s called as long as everyone as access to it? If the name doesn’t matter, why are we changing the name in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/105 "2012-08-05T11:41:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Rights which would be less than what marriage now affords,.. In my hypothetical, civil union affords all the rights as marriage, under the protection of law. Do not be constrained from imagining what could be, by what is now. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/106 "2012-08-05T12:21:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In my hypothetical, civil union affords all the rights as marriage, under the protection of law. Do not be constrained from imagining what could be, by what is now. As I already pointed out, just calling it a “civil union” means it is going to have far less legal recognition across the world. The word marriage has a legal meaning; by calling what we have civil unions, we’re declaring them to not be marriages. That after all is the point of calling them something else. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/107 "2012-08-05T12:44:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As I already pointed out, just calling it a “civil union” means it is going to have far less legal recognition across the world. I doubt that it would be any different than what we have now. Do you really think gay marriages that are legal in the US receive the same level of acceptance in Saudi Arabia? If foreign countries don’t want to respect gay unions of any kind, teminology really isn’t gooing to change that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/108 "2012-08-05T12:50:35Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I doubt that it would be any different than what we have now. Do you really think gay marriages that are legal in the US receive the same level of acceptance in Saudi Arabia? If foreign countries don’t want to respect gay unions of any kind, teminology really isn’t gooing to change that. I didn’t say “gay marriage”, I said “civil unions”. Partners of the opposite sex won’t be recognized as married either\*. And in fact that is what it’s like now; civil unions don’t travel like marriages do. \*Probably not even by each other. That’s the point of calling it a civil union after all; to rub people’s face in the fact they aren’t allowed to be married. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/109 "2012-08-05T12:54:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I didn’t say “gay marriage”, I said “civil unions”. Partners of the opposite sex won’t be recognized as married either\*. And in fact that is what it’s like now; civil unions don’t travel like marriages do. Legal gay marriages don’t travel well. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/110 "2012-08-05T13:13:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Legal gay marriages don’t travel well. And under the “make them all civil unions” plan, nobody’s “marriage” will travel well. Making a problem worse isn’t a solution. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/111 "2012-08-05T16:10:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In my hypothetical, civil union affords all the rights as marriage, under the protection of law. Do not be constrained from imagining what could be, by what is now. Have you circumnavigated the world recently? 😉 Seriously, this is precisely t5he concept advanced by **Magellan91** (except for the all non-religious marriages are civil unions aspect). And it is trivially easy (though requiring a lot of typing) that even if you start with that guarantee of equality written into law, that equality can be eroded step by step, by adding exception after exception to the guarantee or by adopting a ‘Notwithstanding any other section of law…’ provision. And I ask again, all legally recognized marriages today, straight or gay, celebrated by Pope, judge, or Elvis impersonator, polyprogenative or childless, passionate love match or cold eyes-wide-open mutual benefit pact, spouses of the same or wildly disparate ages – they’re all civil marriages. Why go to all the hassle of legally changing the name in tens of thousands of statute laws, regulations, and forms? What benefit is it to anybody (except the bigots who get to ‘protect marriage’ from the rest of us)? ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/112 "2012-08-05T17:59:08Z")
I don’t want my marriage to be known as a civil union. To me, civil union implies a contractual relationship with another person–like a partner in a business. It doesn’t imply a lifelong emotional connection with another person. It’s like the difference between legal guardian and parent. A legal guardian may have no emotional connection with the child and their relationship may end at 18. A parent implies a person with a lifelong emotional connection with the child. Everyone already knows what marriage means. Everyone who is married wants to say they are married, regardless of whether they were joined in a church or the courthouse. If the Catholic Church wants to come up with a trademarked term which means the joined couple fulfilled all the biblical requirements for marriage, more power to them. Actually, the church should come up with a new word. Regardless of SSM, many people call themselves married even though they don’t follow the ideals of a biblical marriage. Some people have open marriages, lots of people don’t believe in Christianity nor raise their children in a religious manner. I would think religious people would want a special word that means they are married in accordance with biblical standards so that their relationship is not confused with the secular understanding of marriage. ---
**Author:** ![richarddean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/97f17d/32.png) [@richarddean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/richarddean)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/113 "2012-08-05T20:49:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am an athiest, but I would like to have an eternal soul and be forgiven for all my sins. Am I being discriminated against by organized religion because I don’t believe in god? No, you’re being discriminated against by reality because you don’t believe in mythology. ---
**Author:** ![Monkey\_Chews](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@Monkey\_Chews](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monkey_Chews)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/114 "2012-08-06T11:28:48Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > The fact is, in this day and age, when one says married, others relate it to the religious. _For the most part._ Wait, what? I don’t think that’s true at all. Certainly not in my experience. Some weddings I’ve been to have taken place in churches (my family is Catholic, although I’m most decidedly not), but at least as many - especially lately, as my friends have been getting married - have taken place in non-religious settings, by marriage celebrants. I don’t relate to a marriage, or even the act of getting married, as a religious thing at all. It’s a ceremony, and a commitment. I would never think of a marriage as primarily a religious thing. Although this explains my genuine confusion at an exchange earlier in the thread when Miller asked: > [@Miller](#): > > What about atheists, like myself, who want to get married? > [@Shakes](#): > > So… you’re an Atheist but you still want the blessing of the imaginary sky wizzard? He didn’t say he wanted god’s blessing, he said he wanted to get married. One doesn’t have to have anything to do with the other. ---
**Author:** ![Enkel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Enkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enkel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/115 "2012-08-06T13:14:50Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > A Swiss woman I knew was astonished that a clergyman was licensed to perform marriages. In Switzerland, you register a marriage with the local (gemeinde or communitè) office and then you are married. (They don’t call it a civil union or any other bullshit word.) You want a religious ceremony? Fine, you are on your own. Churches seem to forget that their ceremonies “join two people in HOLY MATRIMONY” so they already have their own term. Personally, I think they should just create Merger Kiosks. If you want to create a merger with someone, you walk up, provide two hair samples and identifying info. If the DNA isn’t for siblings, then you get an email and downloadable merger certificate good for all things tax, benifits, etc. If you want to cancel a merger with someone, you walk up, enter your merger ID and the machine randomly exterminates one of the two people standing next to it. With a 50/50 shot at survival, that will make people think long and hard before they get a merger or terminate one. ---
**Author:** ![evius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@evius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evius)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/116 "2012-08-07T03:05:58Z")
I thought of this exact same concept when I was in 8th grade. I am gay, and don’t find the idea of declaring all marriages some type of civil union offensive at all. Not only will this law allow all citizens equal rights in regards to marital benefits, but it directly shows that America is not a Christian nation - there is an extreme difference between Church and State. I’m only 21, so I am certainly not considering marriage in the near future. However, I do tire of the hypocrisy posed by those who say they are “protecting the American ideal of family”. I think a lot of older people (35+) don’t put in my generation’s thoughts and ideals about the world at large. The idea that every woman’s dream in life being married is certainly dead by now. Premarital sex is a given for any and every relationship I’ve heard of from peers, gay or straight. I’m just saying, marriage is no longer the process it was created for anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/117 "2012-08-07T03:08:19Z")
Marriage was not created for “the American ideal of family.” Neither was it created to prevent premarital sex. You’re swallowing the entire right-wing story. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/118 "2012-08-07T03:12:47Z")
Furthermore I find it rich for people who say that they have no interest or stake in getting married to tell people who want a civil marriage that they should be satisfied with a civil union. As a supporter of same sex marriage I would nevertheless throw gay couples under the bus if they think it is an acceptable compromise for me to surrender the term “marriage” to religious organizations. ---
**Author:** ![evius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@evius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evius)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/119 "2012-08-07T03:13:07Z")
Here’s a quote from John Adams, a founding father who wrote the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796 “The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” (Article 11 -[Top Cash Earning Games in India 2023 | Best Online Games to earn real money](http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html)) ---
**Author:** ![evius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ccd318/32.png) [@evius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evius)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326/120 "2012-08-07T03:15:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Furthermore I find it rich for people who say that they have no interest or stake in getting married to tell people who want a civil marriage that they should be satisfied with a civil union. As a supporter of same sex marriage I would nevertheless throw gay couples under the bus if they think it is an acceptable compromise for me to surrender the term “marriage” to religious organizations. I’m not saying that marriage was created for America at all. I don’t see how that would make it a right wing story, either. I think the concept of marriage, partnerships, whatever were created solely for the purpose of survival in the ancient world. And why is this a problem if a ‘marriage’ can be declared one for either type of couple, gay or straight, by whatever religious affliation you abide to. The point of this forum is the idea of creating all marriages, civil unions for benefit purposes. If you want a marriage before god, go to your church, not the courthouse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-just-call-them-all-civil-unions-if-you-want-to-get-married-go-to-a-church/630326.md?page=7)