# Let's justify blatant racism! (or: shove your strawmen up your ass!!!) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151 "2003-04-16T19:44:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hauky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/0ea827/32.png) [@Hauky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hauky)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/41 "2003-04-16T22:35:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CuriousCanuck \* > \*\*Also, if you cannot see the blatant racism inherent within the example, \*\* Now I can’t get “Come see the violence inherent in the system!” out of my head. :o ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/42 "2003-04-16T22:37:07Z")
Well put, **Gobear**. * * * [sigh] I wish I’d said “bigotry” or “hatred” instead of “racism” – although “racism” does hold up pretty well vis-a-vis anti-Semitism. Is there a single word that captures the religous chauvanism of a group that disdainfully dismisses all non-Muslims as “infidels”? Because that’s an appellation that’s very commonly tossed about in the overlapping Arab/Muslim worlds. If that isn’t a classic example of entrenched, structural bigotry, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/43 "2003-04-16T22:42:15Z")
settling down a bit - **gobear** - I still don’t get why you’re singling me out here. My point is that you **cannot** reasonably profile the phrase “fundementalist muslim male extremists between these ages” by physical traits. and of course, which was the point of the email in the OP. repeating the phrase over and over. there is no way to accurately profile some one’s religion by physical traits. I agree that asking routine questions of **all** passengers, makes sense. however, that in no way singles out "fundementalist male muslims " etc. and repeating that phrase over and over again as if it’s the solution to ‘the terrorist problem’ is wrong and has dire consequences for the world. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/44 "2003-04-16T22:49:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > > What cult leader and child molester instigated a mass suicide in Waco, Texas? Janet Reno. But I didn’t know she was a child molester. I’ll have to add that to my list of bad things she did. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/45 "2003-04-16T22:54:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > 'scuse me **gobear**? > > where in the fuck do you get that? > > To fucking spell it out for you (again, seems to me we did this exact same fucking thread before) the term “fundementalist muslim male between these ages” does \*\*not \*\* allow you to physically profile people effectively. If you would bother to read my post, you’ll note I made that same point. Focussing on religion and ethnicity is counter-productive. That does not mean that there is no way to effectively profile for terrorists. Look for associations and travel patterns, for example. > [@](#): > > It does, however, allow you to single out males of the appropriate age, and focus on men with dark hair and dark eyes. On the one hand, checking out all men from Arab countries leaves out women, or converts, like the Latino gangbanger convert who wanted to detonate a dirty bomb. On the other hand, it’s stupid to pretend that the terrorists do not all look similar to one another. Sugar, look at [Khalidh Sheik Mohammed](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,436061,00.html). Look at [Mohammed Atta.](http://free-stock-photos.com/history/atta-1.html) Look at [Osama bin Laden](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030402/170/3ou1b.html). Notice any blondes? > [@](#): > > I’ll wait here while you describe for me physical traits which allow some one to correctly ascertain some one’s religion. And I’ll wait here while you A. Apologise for the garbage you falsely attributed to me. B. Acknowledge that you there is a problem with Islamic terrorism. C. Agree that we should look at intent than area of birth of religion. Again, I think that profiling only by ethnic origin is tupid, but at the same time let’s admit we’re not looking at Swedes as equally as we are at Saudis. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/46 "2003-04-16T22:56:47Z")
Muslims are not limited to people of Arabic descent. There could be Asian Muslims, or Black Muslims, or even White Blond Blue Eyed muslim extremists. How can you tell which is which just by looking at them? ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/47 "2003-04-16T22:58:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > I’ll wait here while you describe for me physical traits which allow some one to correctly ascertain some one’s religion. Lack of foreskin. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/48 "2003-04-16T22:58:39Z")
> [@](#): > > however, that in no way singles out "fundementalist male muslims " etc. and repeating that phrase over and over again as if it’s the solution to ‘the terrorist problem’ is wrong and has dire consequences for the world. Looking at male Muslims is stupid and counter-productive. Looking at **fundamentalist** Muslims (not only males) is a start, although still very rudimentary and prone to error. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/49 "2003-04-16T23:03:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Muslims are not limited to people of Arabic descent. There could be Asian Muslims, or Black Muslims, or even White Blond Blue Eyed muslim extremists. How can you tell which is which just by looking at them? \*\* Again, one more time for folks in the back not paying attention. Profiling ONLY by race will trap many more innocent people than it will the guilty. But ignoring ethnicity altogether is just as counter-productive. Men from Saudi Arabia are not necessarily terrorists–99.999 percent are not–but Saudis are FAR more likely to be terrorists than are Finns or Swedes or Argentineans. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/50 "2003-04-16T23:16:31Z")
I think this is about the third time I’ve seen that particular load of crap on this MB. And every time, there are still people defending it. I’ll again refer to my first post on the subject, found in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=137555) thread. To sum it up, I can find more examples of terrorism than that 12-point list from one of several different countries, without even covering more than a decade, instead of the just-over three decades of that list. For every terrorist act perpetrated by muslims, I can cite many more performed by non-muslims… Easily more per region, and possibly even more in a single country. Cites included in the above post. While muslims make a nice stereotypical “face” for terrorism, they are far from being the “main threat” of terrorism. They’re just an easy “them”. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/51 "2003-04-16T23:20:02Z")
Oh, hold up. I made a mistake. I forgot to mention that those “many more” examples to that 12-point list were all, specifically, attacks that involved US citizens. And that one of the parts of that 12 point list _isn’t even terrorism_… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/52 "2003-04-16T23:33:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mojo \* > \*\*Lack of foreskin. \*\* \ My God! I’m Jewish! ---
**Author:** ![Tars\_Tarkas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tars\_Tarkas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tars_Tarkas)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/53 "2003-04-17T00:10:39Z")
Damn, **Miller** , me too! I guess i should stop eating this hot dog! ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/54 "2003-04-17T00:19:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Miller \* > \*\*\ > > My God! I’m Jewish! \*\* Or Muslims or a white American male born between 1960 and 1980. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/55 "2003-04-17T00:53:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tars Tarkas \* > \*\*Damn, **Miller** , me too! I guess i should stop eating this hot dog! \*\* \ “Zat is not my dog.” \ ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/56 "2003-04-17T02:19:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > Sugar, look at [Khalidh Sheik Mohammed](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,436061,00.html). Look at [Mohammed Atta.](http://free-stock-photos.com/history/atta-1.html) Look at [Osama bin Laden](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030402/170/3ou1b.html). Notice any blondes? Neither do I, for my part, notice any non-fallacious arguments. You cited _three_ Muslim men. Three men (among how many million Muslims on this earth?) do not exactly constitute a statistically significant sampling unless your total population is, oh, four. I mean, Christ, would we get a good statistical representation of this board if we examined the posting histories of: Serlin Phaedrus JDT Feck no. But that’s specifically what you’re trying to argue. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/57 "2003-04-17T03:47:38Z")
Don’t forget the two Muslim male snipers who terrorized the Washington D.C. are just a few months ago. In that case, some experts had wrongly profiled the killers as Caucasians, for some reasonl. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/58 "2003-04-17T04:24:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Lack of foreskin. Doubtful. Most American males are circumcised. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/59 "2003-04-17T09:15:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Don’t forget the two Muslim male snipers who terrorized the Washington D.C. are just a few months ago. In that case, some experts had wrongly profiled the killers as Caucasians, for some reasonl. \*\* Which two are those? The young Jamacain who I have never seen reported as even having become a Nation of Islamer or the older man, John Allen, who was some kind of member of the Nation of Islam, a group that is as Muslim as the Baptists. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2003, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151/60 "2003-04-17T09:26:47Z")
As to the point here, I am pleased to inform all that both North Africa and the Sham have native blonde and redheaded populations. The North African ones are Berber, generally not Islamist in orientation but percentages are. The Shami pops are mostly of caucasian origin, resettled there in the late 19th century by the Ottomans, fleeing the Russians. This in addition, of course to ‘slave’ inputs from Balkan and Russian slaves. The range of phenotypes in both the Sham and North Africa are such as to make it ridiculous the idea of profiling by physical type for Islamic radicals. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > On the one hand, checking out all men from Arab countries leaves out women, or converts, like the Latino gangbanger convert who wanted to detonate a dirty bomb. On the other hand, it’s stupid to pretend that the terrorists do not all look similar to one another. > > Sugar, look at [Khalidh Sheik Mohammed](http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,436061,00.html). Look at [Mohammed Atta.](http://free-stock-photos.com/history/atta-1.html) Look at [Osama bin Laden](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030402/170/3ou1b.html). Notice any blondes? Shall soon. Shall soon. In several French cells, native French converts featured prominently. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-justify-blatant-racism-or-shove-your-strawmen-up-your-ass/169151.md?page=4)