# "Let's lose with Joe!" what the 2020 campaign slogan should be **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2020, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820 "2020-04-15T03:58:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/201 "2020-04-17T01:20:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I feel we’re seeing the worst of Biden right now. He’s not good at running for office. But he has a good record in office as a Senator and as a Vice President. That is also my feeling about him. Better bureaucrat and governor than adept politician. ---
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/202 "2020-04-17T01:24:21Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > It would have made me about as happy as when Ralph Nader ran as the Green Party candidate in 200 and rewrote his epitaph from “consumer advocate” to “Spoiler candidate and also consumer advocate.” > > But maybe that’s what would make you happiest. At least until Ruth Bader Ginsburg breaks a hip in 2022 and reelected President Trump gets to name her successor. Actually it wouldn’t make me happy at all as I’d love to see Trump out of office as much or more than anyone here. But if you don’t want to see the next popular progressive candidate be a potential “spoiler” then please shut the fuck up about Bernie not being a Democrat. Parties often endorse people who aren’t members of the party, the Working Families Party and others do it all the time. Would you rather they always nominate their own candidate that could hand the election to the Republicans? I didn’t think so so please quit fucking harping on this. Or the next Bernie will take it to heart and run as an independent or as the Green nominee. ---
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/203 "2020-04-17T01:25:55Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > I guess being a troll doesn’t pay well enough for you to smoke the good stuff. Frankly Dale you really aren’t worth responding to so this will be the last time. You’re just a troll for the Shitbag Party. ---
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/204 "2020-04-17T01:31:07Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I already explained this. The perception of electability becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. Someone might agree more with Bernie, but hear from everywhere that Biden is more electable, and so they do what they feel is their duty, wanting to beat Trump, and they vote for Biden even though they like Bernie more. It doesn’t matter if Biden actually is more electable, just that the prevailing narrative says he is. > > Sandes would do better in the general than the primary, yes. He gets a lot of votes that aren’t traditional democratic votes. Younger votes, people who are apathetic, and even crossover votes from people who aren’t die hard republicans but want to do something to shake up the system and elect someone who is anti-establishment. Trump got all those votes in 2016, but now Trump is the establishment and Bernie is anti-establishment. > > In theory, Bernie should also get the votes from everyone who is a traditional democrat, who sees needing to beat Trump as the main priority, and will vote blue, no matter who. > > So, let’s say Biden gets 60% of the democratic primary votes, and Bernie gets 40%. The thing about Biden’s 60% is that they’re mostly democratic party establishment enthusiasts - they call themselves democrats, they vote democrat, they are politically active. Bernie’s group includes some of them, but it also includes a lot of people who signed up to vote in the democratic primary specifically for him, and would not have otherwise voted. > > Because Bernie’s group is made up of a lot of people who are not necessarily democratic party loyalties or consistntly politically active, they may not feel it’s their duty to vote for Biden. But people who are politically active democrats should generally feel like it’s their duty to vote blue no matter who. So Bernie should get most to all of Biden’s primary group in the general, whereas it’s not as clear cut that it goes the other way. So Bernie gets both groups more than Biden gets both groups. > > A lot of people who voted for Biden for the perceived electability - that goes out the window when the general hits, since those same people, concerned about someone being elected against Trump, vote for whoever was against Trump. There are a lot of reasons that the primary election is not the same thing as the general election, factors that could easily allow a primary loser to be a general election winner. > > I think people overestimate how scary the whole “socialist” thing is nowadays. People are finally waking up to Republicans using socialism as a scare word for decades, and they know they’re getting a raw deal, so having things like publically paid university or health care sounds pretty good. A lot of the assumptions of how badly people would react to Bernie in the general are overestimated. > > Which questions do you mean? Your last post towards me I answered in post #182. You’re analysis is spot on SenorBeef, the only thing I would add is that a large segment of Biden’s (and Hillary’s) support in the primaries is from voters in the South, which has little to no bearing on performance in the general election. So the Democrats get a few more percentage points in Alabama (maybe) - whoopee. Let’s depress enthusiasm in winnable states to perform slightly better in the South - now that’s a winning strategy… ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/205 "2020-04-17T01:33:47Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I already explained this. The perception of electability becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. Someone might agree more with Bernie, but hear from everywhere that Biden is more electable, and so they do what they feel is their duty, wanting to beat Trump, and they vote for Biden even though they like Bernie more. It doesn’t matter if Biden actually is more electable, just that the prevailing narrative says he is. > > Sandes would do better in the general than the primary, yes. He gets a lot of votes that aren’t traditional democratic votes. Younger votes, people who are apathetic, and even crossover votes from people who aren’t die hard republicans but want to do something to shake up the system and elect someone who is anti-establishment. Trump got all those votes in 2016, but now Trump is the establishment and Bernie is anti-establishment. > > In theory, Bernie should also get the votes from everyone who is a traditional democrat, who sees needing to beat Trump as the main priority, and will vote blue, no matter who. > > So, let’s say Biden gets 60% of the democratic primary votes, and Bernie gets 40%. The thing about Biden’s 60% is that they’re mostly democratic party establishment enthusiasts - they call themselves democrats, they vote democrat, they are politically active. Bernie’s group includes some of them, but it also includes a lot of people who signed up to vote in the democratic primary specifically for him, and would not have otherwise voted. > > Because Bernie’s group is made up of a lot of people who are not necessarily democratic party loyalties or consistntly politically active, they may not feel it’s their duty to vote for Biden. But people who are politically active democrats should generally feel like it’s their duty to vote blue no matter who. So Bernie should get most to all of Biden’s primary group in the general, whereas it’s not as clear cut that it goes the other way. So Bernie gets both groups more than Biden gets both groups. > > A lot of people who voted for Biden for the perceived electability - that goes out the window when the general hits, since those same people, concerned about someone being elected against Trump, vote for whoever was against Trump. There are a lot of reasons that the primary election is not the same thing as the general election, factors that could easily allow a primary loser to be a general election winner. > > I think people overestimate how scary the whole “socialist” thing is nowadays. People are finally waking up to Republicans using socialism as a scare word for decades, and they know they’re getting a raw deal, so having things like publically paid university or health care sounds pretty good. A lot of the assumptions of how badly people would react to Bernie in the general are overestimated. > > Which questions do you mean? Your last post towards me I answered in post #182. Don’t get high on your own supply. All of these non voters and young voters who couldn’t be arsed to vote for Bernie in the primaries are now going to charge out with their pitchforks and torches and vote for Bernie in November. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/206 "2020-04-17T01:40:49Z")
> [@RealFDRdem](#): > > You’re analysis is spot on SenorBeef, the only thing I would add is that a large segment of Biden’s (and Hillary’s) support in the primaries is from voters in the South, which has little to no bearing on performance in the general election. So the Democrats get a few more percentage points in Alabama (maybe) - whoopee. Let’s depress enthusiasm in winnable states to perform slightly better in the South - now that’s a winning strategy… Ah, come on troll, you can do better than that. I’m sure you don’t want those kind of people to vote in SC/AL/MS. But, your shitbag was also rejected in MI and FL, losing every county. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/207 "2020-04-17T01:42:36Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I already explained this. The perception of electability becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. Someone might agree more with Bernie, but hear from everywhere that Biden is more electable, and so they do what they feel is their duty, wanting to beat Trump, and they vote for Biden even though they like Bernie more. It doesn’t matter if Biden actually is more electable, just that the prevailing narrative says he is. So how many closeted Bernie supporters actually voted for Biden when Bernie was still on the ballot? And if they voted for Biden during the primaries, why wouldn’t they vote for him in November? > [@](#): > > Sandes would do better in the general than the primary, yes. He gets a lot of votes that aren’t traditional democratic votes. Younger votes, people who are apathetic, and even crossover votes from people who aren’t die hard republicans but want to do something to shake up the system and elect someone who is anti-establishment. Trump got all those votes in 2016, but now Trump is the establishment and Bernie is anti-establishment. Where do you get that idea? Bernie couldn’t even win Washtenaw (University of Michigan) or Ingham (Michigan State) counties in the Michigan primary. He couldn’t win Dane County (UW) Wisconsin in their primary. He couldn’t win Boone County (UM) Missouri. I would have thought that all those Sanders supporters who were convinced that he was cheated in 2016 would turn out in force to make sure it didn’t happen again in 2020. > [@](#): > > So, let’s say Biden gets 60% of the democratic primary votes, and Bernie gets 40%. The thing about Biden’s 60% is that they’re mostly democratic party establishment enthusiasts - they call themselves democrats, they vote democrat, they are politically active. Bernie’s group includes some of them, but it also includes a lot of people who signed up to vote in the democratic primary specifically for him, and would not have otherwise voted. But they DIDN’T vote for him. Otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion. > [@](#): > > Because Bernie’s group is made up of a lot of people who are not necessarily democratic party loyalties or consistntly politically active, they may not feel it’s their duty to vote for Biden. But people who are politically active democrats should generally feel like it’s their duty to vote blue no matter who. So Bernie should get most to all of Biden’s primary group in the general, whereas it’s not as clear cut that it goes the other way. So Bernie gets both groups more than Biden gets both groups. I’ll agree with you about the “consistently politically active” part. But Bernie Sanders himself has said it’s important for that group to vote to defeat Donald Trump. Shouldn’t that be enough motivation? > [@](#): > > A lot of people who voted for Biden for the perceived electability - that goes out the window when the general hits, since those same people, concerned about someone being elected against Trump, vote for whoever was against Trump. There are a lot of reasons that the primary election is not the same thing as the general election, factors that could easily allow a primary loser to be a general election winner. Ah, yes. The “look how Trump did it” argument. The only problem with that is the “look how Hillary failed” argument. It’s possible to be so polarizing, or just such a bad candidate that a sizable number of people who should support you simply won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/208 "2020-04-17T03:18:18Z")
So your theory is that people really wanted to vote for Sanders but didn’t because somebody told them they shouldn’t. If people are that weak-willed how would Sanders have won the election? Wouldn’t Trump or somebody just tell those same people they weren’t supposed to vote for Sanders in the general election as well? You know what? Don’t bother explaining. I’m done here. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/209 "2020-04-17T03:28:15Z")
All this Biden talk is reminding me of how I felt the last time Biden ran. No, not 2016, I mean the last time he ran in any serious sense. It was 1988. Or it was the election of 1988. I think I started following him in 1987. It was a different time. Ronald Reagan was finishing his second term. The Republicans had veered to the right and they had a definite _attitude_ that they were the new permanent rulers in American politics because socialism and communism were disproven and in disarray, or so it was being said. Liberalism had been repudiated. Yeah, Jimmy Carter had managed to get himself elected for one term but it was entirely because of Nixon’s bad press on Watergate and it didn’t really count. Joe Biden looked good. In that time, for that time, he looked like a good combo of pragmatic and progressive. And competent. He came across like he knew what he was doing. Then it came out that he’d plagiarized a speech and he dropped out and the Democratic nomination went to Michael Dukakis, who went on to lose to George H. W. Bush. I always wish it hadn’t gone down that way. He was the one I wanted in 1988. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/210 "2020-04-17T04:17:20Z")
> [@RealFDRdem](#): > > You’re analysis is spot on SenorBeef Nah, he works under the assumption that all the Democrats would vote for anyone plus extra people for Bernie. However, the segment of people who are into politics enough to post on Facebook or Reddit or Twitter or here aren’t representative of the voting population at large (or else Sanders might be the nominee). Just because someone regularly casts a Democratic ballot doesn’t mean they’ll “vote blue no matter who” – they just won’t bother to vote if it’s someone they dislike. > [@](#): > > the only thing I would add is that a large segment of Biden’s (and Hillary’s) support in the primaries is from voters in the South Wisconsin 63-32, Michigan 53-37, Minnesota 39-30, N. Carolina 43-24, etc. But, uh… sure. [Edit: I’m aware that NC is “the south” but the point is that it’s not a solid red state like “I have support in Alabama”] I also disagree with the idea that people would flock to Sanders for policy if not for electability. People can like Sanders’ ideas _in theory_ but still not like Sanders. I think he has some good ideas but I have zero confidence in his ability to get them enacted and think he would be a disastrous president overall. Thinking that Medicare For All or free higher education would be a nice thing isn’t going to necessarily make you think that Sanders is the guy you want on the ballot. This is where Sanders really failed in his campaign – he had the votes of the converted but, for everyone else, the argument wasn’t much better than “Oh, you don’t want to vote for Sanders? I guess you just hate poor people then.” ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/211 "2020-04-17T04:26:09Z")
> [@RealFDRdem](#): > > No actually that will be Joe in November (and you every day of your life), you’re way off base and while some of you are okay, frankly most of the people on this site suck. I never made this personal to anyone posting unless someone did first. Apparently you’re in a similar state of mental decline as Joe and making it personal is the only way you can score points in your mind. Fuck off. Yep. I hit a nerve. How’s tricks **Barack Obama**? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/212 "2020-04-17T04:29:09Z")
I’m on record here saying I would vote for anyone that gets the Dem nomination. On record saying I would vote for a small soap dish over trump. So, I’m voting for the dem nominee. Correct me if I am mistaken, but don’t most Bernie Bros skew to the younger demographic? Are the most likely to be under employed working non-career jobs, living at home and lacking any kind of meaningful health insurance (unless it is on the parents plan)? Maybe the way to reach Bernie Bros is that even if it is warm shit versus cold shit, trump has a proven track record of reducing those covered by insurance and the government safety net. Obama/biden have a track record of blowing all their political capital in year 1 on getting tens of millions of Americans on healthcare. If nothing else, Covid should teach us that having some kind of meaningful universal health care is important. It is a stark choice: protest vote that will make the safety net even more nebulous if trump wins, or go all out to elect someone that will fight for the safety net. You want out of your parents basement? You want to roll the dice on a startup? You want to be a starbucks barista while working on your youtube channel? You want healthcare if covid decides to flare up for the next few years or a new pandemic comes sneaking out of the backwoods somewhere? It would sure as fuck be preferable to have some kind of safety net backstop. Shit I’m not even asking for public support, register and choose which will fuck you over the least. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/213 "2020-04-17T04:41:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I mean - why Biden and not Pete? Is it because Biden beat him soundly at the polls? No, it’s because Pete, despite being a viable candidate, decided to drop out right before Super Tuesday like every other candidate. It was an obvious coordinated move to consolidate the anti-Bernie vote into one candidate. Buttigieg and Klobuchar dropped out exactly one day after it was clear “narrative” wasn’t enough to win South Carolina. Stop with the “centrist” conspiracy bullshit, anyone with a calendar can see how fucking stupid it is. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/214 "2020-04-17T04:45:48Z")
I guess we’re doing this, despite the obvious troll. (People don’t join for this sort of thing without an ulterior motive.) So I’ll play. SenorBeef: Yes, in theory, someone could lose the primary but have been the more electable candidate in the general. But that requires that they appeal to those who would not vote in the primary. I don’t see any sign of that. Since Bernie’s supporters are mostly Democrats or independent, and there was no reason whatsoever to pick the Republican primary over the Democratic one, I would expect that all of Bernie’s enthusiastic supporters would vote for him in the Democratic primary. Yet, while Bernie got an early lead, these people didn’t show up. Bernie’s plan to win depended on those enthusiastic supporter, giving him enthusiasm above that of Trump’s enthusiastic supporters. But he was unable to get them out to vote for him. He also failed to even really try to make the case to more rank-and-file Democrats that he was the better choice. As such, I can’t see any path for him based on his performance in the primaries. Maybe if it were closer, like in 2016, where maybe he was the better candidate. But not in 2020. As much as I want the US to push progressive policies, both more progressive candidates lost. If Bernie had managed to make an upset in all of this, then maybe we’d throw out the traditional ideas of electability. It would show that things were genuinely different this time. But that didn’t happen. So the conventional wisdom the Dems, as the leftmost party, already havsall your voters from the left and needs to pick up people from the center seems to hold. I continue to think I can get neverTrump conservatives and independents to vote for Biden. I think the former would never vote for him, and the latter would have split the vote. On the other hand, I do acknowledge the enthusiasm gap for Biden. My only hope is that his VP pick can make up for that, and that it, combined with enthusiasm against Trump, can win the day. The one thing that won’t win is telling Biden supporters they’re bad, any more than that would work on Bernie supporters. The game is over. Biden’s our man. We NEED to actually be enthusiastic for him, and stop infighting. Hence, again, why I think the OP posted like they did. I don’t for a moment think that someone would spontaneously show up here of all places and start arguing about Biden vs. Sanders. Either they’ve been here before and liked the Pit, or they just wanted to stir up shit–possibly both. ---
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/215 "2020-04-17T05:29:23Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Buttigieg and Klobuchar dropped out exactly one day after it was clear “narrative” wasn’t enough to win South Carolina. Stop with the “centrist” conspiracy bullshit, anyone with a calendar can see how fucking stupid it is. Really? So can you tell me that you honestly believe that if the media spent the last two years praising Bernie as electable and Biden as unelectable that the primary results would be the same? Probably not because I doubt that your’re that dumb. ---
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/216 "2020-04-17T05:31:53Z")
Anyone who doesn’t believe Buttigieg was presented with a gangster deal is an idiot. “Ya know, this career of yours could have a mighty fine future, be a shame if we had to kill it”. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/217 "2020-04-17T11:45:23Z")
> [@RealFDRdem](#): > > Anyone who doesn’t believe Buttigieg was presented with a gangster deal is an idiot. “Ya know, this career of yours could have a mighty fine future, be a shame if we had to kill it”. Lest anyone think anything more of you than a standard issue paranoid conspiracy theory lunatic. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/218 "2020-04-17T15:33:14Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I don’t really buy this. On social issues? Sure, everyone is less racist and homphobic and all that. That’s fine. Those are the issues that the rich let us argue over because they don’t care about the result, it doesn’t affect them. Racism is a pretty big issue and if money won the election then Hillary would have won the last time around. > [@](#): > > We can squabble over abortion and gay rights and gun control - they don’t give a shit. In fact, they like it, it gives them the chance to make us feel like we’re making a real choice when in terms of economics, income inequality, and who holds the political power in this country, both parties are on the same side. The parties are vastly more similar than they are different. Yes both parties live in the real world, that requires them to have similar policies on some things. They are both political parties in a capitalist democracy, and both believe it is better to be poor in America than poor in Russia or China or Cuba. Capitalism, for all it’s faults, has been the vehicle for bringing more people out of abject poverty than all the government programs in the world combined (with the exception of public education). > [@](#): > > But economically? There used to be people on both sides who genuinely tried to serve the American public before the rich. Now there are none - Bernie is the last one that will run in our lifetimes, barring some real deal unexpected massive change in American society. Every single “moderate” democrat serves the rich and corporate interests firsts, and the American people a distant second. You have a cite for that? AFAICT, labor unions support the Democrats. > [@](#): > > We are an oligarchy, a managed democracy, and a kleptocracy, the parties only differ in how blatant and how destructively greedy they are in the short term. The democrats favor a more sane policy of keeping the economy good for the rich in the long term, so they’ve got a little more sane economic policy, whereas the Republicans are in the blatant Banana Republic looting the country stage. But they are not on different sides of the spectrum. They are both tools of the oligarchy. They are both significantly right wing. You have a very warped view of the political spectrum. > [@](#): > > Don’t confuse following social trends that don’t affect the rich as a move towards being progressive or left. We were far more left than we were now in the 1930s through 1970s. FDR was considered a class traitor for actually serving the American public. We will never see anyone like that again. Obamacare. Carter, Clinton, Obama, all raised top marginal tax rates. Environmental regulations affecting industry. CPFB And that’s what comes to mind in the 30 seconds i thought about it. You should stop hyperventilating, you’ll pass out. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/219 "2020-04-17T15:43:19Z")
> [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > Oh, he won Iowa by 0.01% of a point? Wow! Holy shit. That changes…actually, nothing. Guess what, shithead? He _still_ lost harder than Sanders. Then he capitulated to the Biden Juggernaut the instant they dangled something shiny in front of his little rat face, proving that he’s just an empty suit with no principles who stands for nothing. He is, and always will be, fucking Ratboy. _That’s_ his future 😃 Let’s say AOC was old enough and was running for president but at some point dropped out and endorsed Bernie. How is this different? AFAICT Pete Butigieg is an inexperienced version of Biden (actually he seems significantly to the right of him). So it seems entirely natural to me for him to endorse biden and to do it when he did. If you want to accuse Klobuchar, Butigieg, Bloomberg, Warren and everyone else from clearing the field so that people could choose between Biden and Bernie, then fine but unless Bernie was depending on a split moderate vote getting him to the convention, I don’t see what the harm. None of these candidates are obligated to keep running to create interference to help Bernie if they actually don’t agree with him and none of them are obligated to endorse Bernie if they don’t actually agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/220 "2020-04-17T16:08:58Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Okay, you’re missing my point. And using official “socialist” party numbers are ridiculous. Obviously Bernie’s support base is greater than people who officially vote for a “socialist” party, Bernie isn’t even socialist, and that data point makes no sense. > > But, to my greater point: Progressives are told “you have two choices, you have to grow up and make the right decision. You have to vote. You have to vote democrat. Doesn’t matter who. If you don’t, you’re voting for Trump” > > And if someone decides they don’t want to do that because they don’t support the democratic party or their candidate, they’re absolutely flamed for it. People go on a vitriolic diatribe about entitled unreasonable progressive voters demanding perfection, blah blah. People hate the people who wouldn’t vote for Biden. If you are a progressive in a swing state and you are not voting because you simply cannot vote for the lesser of two evils then you are doing nothing to promote your agenda. If you are a moderate and you feel like Trump is a better fit for you than Bernie and you vote Trump, then you are promoting your agenda even if neither of them are anywhere near where you want to be. > [@](#): > > But those same people turn around and say “you can’t nominate Bernie, old democratic voters won’t vote for him!” and this is treated as normal, acceptable, and without vitriol, with no blame or hatred directed at the people who wouldn’t vote for Bernie. Just like the Democrats are not fighting the Republicans over the tea party vote, they are not fighting us for the socialist vote. We are in fact fighting the Republicans for the votes in the center. That is how democracy should work. Just because the Republicans decided that they would rather try to win elections by running away from the center doesn’t mean Democrats should do likewise. If we see a majority of swing states with large numbers of socialist voters, then things could change but right now that’s not the case. > [@](#): > > Why aren’t those old democratic voters scared for Bernie getting lectures about how we have to vote blue no matter who, that they supprot Trump if they won’t vote for Bernie in the general, and all that? Why aren’t they getting the same vitriol for being expected to refuse to vote for the candidate? > > If anyone says “if we nominate Biden, you’ll scare off progressives”, the response is “those fucking stupid ass Bernie bro entitled kids need to grow their ass up and realize that they have to vote blue no matter what or they love Trump”, if someone says “If we nominate Bernie, you’ll scare off the old democrats”, that’s just treated as reasonable, prudent, and the fault of Bernie and not the scared old democrats. > > In other words, progressives who doubt Biden are getting a completely different treatment than establishment democrats who doubt Bernie. Because they aren’t establishment Democrats. They are swing voters who probably find Biden barely acceptable and only because Trump is so fucking bad. Many of them have voted for a Republican in their lifetime. They have to decide which of two candidates are more consistent with their interests. You don’t have this problem. Biden is significantly more in line with your views than Trump, there is no real question about which candidate aligns more with your views. If we had ranked choice voting then you could vote for bernie and still end up voting for biden but that’s not the system anywhere except Maine AFAICT. Rank choice voting sends a signal but the result would be the same. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820.md?page=12)