# "Let's lose with Joe!" what the 2020 campaign slogan should be **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 15, 2020, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820 "2020-04-15T03:58:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/81 "2020-04-16T01:46:43Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > My guess is he’s a sock for the banned poster who went by the name **Barack Obama**. Sanders was his wet dream, and this is just him coming back to be a poor loser. Emphasis on “loser.” No actually that will be Joe in November (and you every day of your life), you’re way off base and while some of you are okay, frankly most of the people on this site suck. I never made this personal to anyone posting unless someone did first. Apparently you’re in a similar state of mental decline as Joe and making it personal is the only way you can score points in your mind. Fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/82 "2020-04-16T01:49:02Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Michigan Pennsylvania and Wisconsin were the only real surprises. > Nevada was a surprise in Clinton’s favor. > > So your argument is we should go with the guy who is polling WORSE because THAT’s the key to winning? > > How in the world do you think Bernie can win the general when he can’t even win the primary? That sort of argument can only be made by a moderate who has crossover appeal. What do you think will happen? A bunch of swing voters and Republicans will vote for Bernie? Funny how back in 2016 all we heard when Bernie was thumping the Republicans in the polls all we heard was “Polling this far out from the general is meaningless, yada yada yada” but when Biden has a similar showing it’s “get in line lefties, obviously Biden has the best chance, he’s winning in the polls!!!”. ---
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/83 "2020-04-16T01:52:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think he should entirely ignore the radical left. We can’t afford to lose moderates that actually vote for young radicals that do not. > > All things being equal a radical that loses in the primary has no chance of doing better than a moderate that wins the primary. The radical is very unlikely to get more crossover or swing voters than the moderate. That’s if one accepts the media narrative that Bernie is a radical, rather than someone who is more in the mold of FDR. The radicals are those that bend their knees to Goldman Sachs and money in general. ---
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/84 "2020-04-16T01:55:46Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Maybe they should only count for 3/5 of a white Bernie bro. Count on another douchebag on this site to use a non sequiter implying that I’m a racist rather than engaging the argument. If Democrats are going to think strategically the popularity of a candidate in states he/she might ultimately win is of utmost importance. Which is why it was obvious that Bernie was the better candidate in 2016. ---
**Author:** ![RealFDRdem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@RealFDRdem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealFDRdem)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/85 "2020-04-16T02:01:09Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Yes, sure. This logic doesn’t hold up. Hillary vs Trump and Bernie vs Trump are entirely different races than Bernie vs Hillary. They have different factors that go into them. > > To use a simplified hypothetical, let’s say that there are groups A B and C. Group A is 15% of the population, group By is 40% of the population, group C is the remaining 45%. These numbers are for demonstration purposes. > > Group B are the party-line democrats. Vote blue no matter who. Group C are the party line republicans. Group A are a little trickier. They’re a mix of left and anti-establishment, but not democrats. They don’t really like the democratic party. Some will vote democrat, but a lot of them are simply turned off to even participating in the system. > > If a candidate that group A likes runs against a candidate that group B likes in group B’s own party, the candidate for group B will win. Group B will then all vote for their candidate, and group A will not. Group B loses to group C. > > But imagine if they nominated the candidate group A wants. Well, since it’s group B’s party, and they all pledged to be good little group Bs and vote for whoever the candidate was, then the disaffected group A gets to vote for their candidate, and the group B dutifully votes for that candidate. The combined powers of group A and B defeat C easily. > > Now - in the real world - it’s more complex. The candidate that A likes may scare off some of the group B voters. I get that. But saying “Hillary beat Bernie, and Hillary lost to Trump, therefore Bernie would’ve lost to Trump” is wrong. The factors and groups involved in the general election are not the same as those involved in the primary. You could very well have one candidate who could beat the other in a primary, but the one who would lose the primary would fare better in the general election. > > I think we definitely saw that in 2016. Trump tapped into a lot of “fuck the system” votes from people who feel like they’re losing ground in our society and they just wanted to shake stuff up. Either for spite, as some sort of protest, or because they really thought having an outsider in there who wasn’t part of the establishment would be good for the country. That’s not the only reason people voted for Trump, but it was a big one. > > Bernie undercuts that narrative entirely. Even though he’s a career politician, he is very much non-establishment. The establishment fears Bernie more than they fear Trump. In a time when the sentiment was anti-establishment, the democrats ran the most establishment candidate ever against someone perceived as being an outsider, and that hugely boosted Trump. Having Bernie run against Trump completely undercuts that “fuck it, let’s shake up the system” reason for voting. It gives people who want to register an anti-establishment vote a chance to do that with someone who is not a pile of human garbage. > > I think Bernie would’ve won in 2016. I think Biden will actually do worse than Hillary did because he’s losing his marbles. I think they’re hiding him away right now and it will only become apparent how much he’s declined closer to the election, which will end up doing more damage. I’m not sure if Bernie would’ve won in 2020, but I think his chances are better than what Biden’s will be. Exactly SenorBeef I tried to make this point over and over to people in 2016 and they just looked at me like I was clueless. “Well the tv and newspaper people are telling me something different and obviously they know better”. The mentality of people who get all their info from MSNBC. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/86 "2020-04-16T02:02:00Z")
> [@RealFDRdem](#): > > That’s if one accepts the media narrative that Bernie is a radical, rather than someone who is more in the mold of FDR. Nah, he’s more in the mold of [HRCF](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez). If there is anyone whose policies could do more and more lasting damage to the US than Trump, it is Burny. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/87 "2020-04-16T02:22:34Z")
> [@RealFDRdem](#): > > Which is why it was obvious that Bernie was the better candidate in 2016. Then why didn’t he win? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/88 "2020-04-16T03:13:46Z")
Bernie couldn’t win the Democratic nomination in 2020. He couldn’t win it in 2016, either. Why on earth would I expect non-Democrats to vote for Bernie if even Democrats won’t vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/89 "2020-04-16T03:22:25Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I think Bernie would’ve won in 2016. I think Biden will actually do worse than Hillary did because he’s losing his marbles. I think they’re hiding him away right now and it will only become apparent how much he’s declined closer to the election, which will end up doing more damage. The rest of your post is a valid argument, albeit one I don’t entirely agree with. But this is just perpetuating a conspiracy theory, and is exactly the sort of thing that makes people dislike Bernie supporters. It’s the same bullshit that the GOP pushed on Clinton in 2016, which Bernie’s side joined in on. We have more evidence for Trump’s mental instability than we do for Biden’s. Fuck off with trying to start the “doesn’t she look tired” rumors. Bernie lost. All of us anti-Trumpers are in this together now. Stop trying to tear us apart. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/90 "2020-04-16T03:24:40Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Bernie couldn’t win the Democratic nomination in 2020. He couldn’t win it in 2016, either. Why on earth would I expect non-Democrats to vote for Bernie if even Democrats won’t vote for him. I can easily get my parents to vote for Biden. I was facing an uphill battle with Bernie, who mom has already said she dislikes (same as she did Clinton, BTW). That, BTW, is what Biden has that Clinton doesn’t. He’s not got the built in hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/91 "2020-04-16T03:29:51Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I can easily get my parents to vote for Biden. I was facing an uphill battle with Bernie, who mom has already said she dislikes (same as she did Clinton, BTW). > > That, BTW, is what Biden has that Clinton doesn’t. He’s not got the built in hatred. Weird because ideologically Biden is a Clinton clone. He doesn’t have the built in hatred because he isn’t a woman. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/92 "2020-04-16T04:07:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The rest of your post is a valid argument, albeit one I don’t entirely agree with. But this is just perpetuating a conspiracy theory, and is exactly the sort of thing that makes people dislike Bernie supporters. It’s the same bullshit that the GOP pushed on Clinton in 2016, which Bernie’s side joined in on. > > We have more evidence for Trump’s mental instability than we do for Biden’s. Fuck off with trying to start the “doesn’t she look tired” rumors. > > Bernie lost. All of us anti-Trumpers are in this together now. Stop trying to tear us apart. Fuck off. Not every fucking criticism of your precious party is a fucking conspiracy theory. I am not trying to divide the fucking country on Joe Biden. If Joe Biden, shitty as he is, does not win this election, our democracy - managed as it is - is lost. But the coronavirus and Trump’s mishandling of it is the perfect opportunity for a presidential candidate to step up and win America over and show his leadership. Joe has been largely quiet and absent. Do you think Hillary would quietly sit this one out? No, of course not, she’d be on TV every day talking about what America needed to do and trying to assert leadership. When he does make appearance, he’s doing stuff [like this](https://twitter.com/brandondarby/status/1242480561895194624) and [this](https://twitter.com/i/status/1242113061672157189). I am not trying to discourage anyone from voting for Biden. Even if Biden is completely senile and unfit for president, he’s running up a guy who is actively malignantly unfit, and more importantly, is surrounded by people who will steer and exploit his evil, whereas Biden’s people will be at least sane. Absolutely fucking vote Biden. But I’m sick to my stomach of watching the fucking slow motion train wreck before me, just like I was in 2016, when the democrats couldn’t fucking field anyone but one of the worst possible candidates in the entire fucking country than Trump. This isn’t even about Bernie. Pete would’ve been a thousand times better. He’s smart, he can politician well, and people would actually like him. Biden is 78 and the stresses of the campaign are significant. It’s not at all a stretch to think this might’ve accelerated age-related mental decline. You would expect someone in his position to be rallying America in his favor right now, this is a prime opportunity, and yet Joe seems to be minimizing his opportunities to talk to the public. Is it too late to fix this? If Biden dropped out, what would happen? Would it be decided at the convention? I’m not talking about Bernie - I get that, he’s never going to be candidate no matter what - but Biden could at least step out in favor of someone who could string some sentences together and be liked. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/93 "2020-04-16T04:30:49Z")
I apologize for saying “fuck off”. You’ve been mostly reasonable as far as I’ve seen in these threads, and your intentions are good. I just don’t like every observation or criticism to be called a conspiracy theory. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/94 "2020-04-16T05:26:18Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > Gotta love the bros who genuinely believe Sanders is more electable than Biden because pretty much everyone on both their favorite subreddits say so. Hahaha! Yeah…I remember when they said that about Clinton/Sanders too and look how easily she won! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/95 "2020-04-16T05:37:08Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The rest of your post is a valid argument, albeit one I don’t entirely agree with. But this is just perpetuating a conspiracy theory, and is exactly the sort of thing that makes people dislike Bernie supporters. It’s the same bullshit that the GOP pushed on Clinton in 2016, which Bernie’s side joined in on. What is it, exactly, that is “the sort of thing that makes people dislike Bernie supporters”? Genuinely curious to see you spell it out than hand-wave feels. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/96 "2020-04-16T05:56:05Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I can easily get my parents to vote for Biden. I was facing an uphill battle with Bernie, who mom has already said she dislikes (same as she did Clinton, BTW). Yeah, Sanders would have lost big in a general by losing the votes of older voters who (a) want no part of the “socialist revolution” thing and (b) actually go out and vote, unlike the never materializing wave of youth enthusiasm Sanders was supposed to drum up. In polls about what sort of person people would/wouldn’t vote for, “socialist” was the most toxic category polled. And, no, I don’t think trying to nuance “But he’s a _Democratic Socialist_, totally different” would get much traction against the GOP drumbeat of linking Sanders to every Communist/Socialist leader in history. Sanders supporters wanted the math to be “All the Democrats PLUS new Sanders people” but the reality is that Sanders would have lost a lot of those Democrats. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/97 "2020-04-16T06:04:51Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Yeah, Sanders would have lost big in a general by losing the votes of older voters who (a) want no part of the “socialist revolution” thing and (b) actually go out and vote, unlike the never materializing wave of youth enthusiasm Sanders was supposed to drum up. In polls about what sort of person people would/wouldn’t vote for, “socialist” was the most toxic category polled. And, no, I don’t think trying to nuance “But he’s a _Democratic Socialist_, totally different” would get much traction against the GOP drumbeat of linking Sanders to every Communist/Socialist leader in history. > > Sanders supporters wanted the math to be “All the Democrats PLUS new Sanders people” but the reality is that Sanders would have lost a lot of those Democrats. Do you have data to back that up? (I’ll be over here not holding my breath.) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/98 "2020-04-16T06:19:09Z")
It’s a touch weird, isn’t it, that when people talk about Sanders winning, they talk about all the voters he’d scare away, as if they were victims or reasonably cautious. But when Biden is selected, then no one is talking about the downside of the voters he might scare away. Instead, the narrative is more like “those selfish asshole Trump-supporting Bernie traitors that won’t vote for our guy” Why is it that the prospect of Bernie scaring off voters is viewed as a Bernie problem, but Biden scaring off voters is, well, also viewed as a Bernie problem, or a problem with those voters? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/99 "2020-04-16T06:19:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you have data to back that up? Well, we’re speaking in hypotheticals but, sure, I can point to [socialism being toxic](https://news.gallup.com/poll/285563/socialism-atheism-political-liabilities.aspx) and his [general unattractiveness as a candidate](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/460161-bernie-sanders-struggles-to-win-over-older-voters) to [older voters (based in part on his socialism)](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/05/30/bernie-sanders-older-voters-1346590) or how the turnout surge in the primaries has [been for Biden](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/487106-turnout-surge-powers-biden-in-primaries), powered by [blacks, moderates and older voters](https://www.wsj.com/articles/joe-biden-surges-by-expanding-the-democratic-electorate-11583364612) – all groups Sanders failed to connect with and groups which helped lead the Democratic wins in 2018. These aren’t people who would have been inspired to go out and vote for Sanders; if anything, part of the Biden primary surge was people voting to _block_ Sanders. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820/100 "2020-04-16T06:21:04Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > It’s a touch weird, isn’t it, that when people talk about Sanders winning, they talk about all the voters he’d scare away, as if they were victims or reasonably cautious. But when Biden is selected, then no one is talking about the downside of the voters he might scare away. Are you kidding? The whole Sanders electability argument was “You have to pick Sanders because he’ll get a million-gorillion young voters and if it’s dirty terrible Biden then everyone hate voting and will stay home and never vote ever again” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-lose-with-joe-what-the-2020-campaign-slogan-should-be/851820.md?page=6)