# Lets not pardon the French?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [July 24, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703 "2003-07-24T20:07:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/21 "2003-07-25T12:26:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by december \*
> \*\*Unfortunately, the cited article has a poorly chosen title and an uneven hodgepodge of examples. IMHO the French deserve serious criticism for supporting cruel dictators in a number of countries, but it’s just silly to ding them for inventing the Guillitine. \*\*
IMHO the Americans deserve serious criticism for supporting cruel dictators in a number of countries, but it’s just silly to ding them for inventing the machine gun.
Since you’re American, I will try to enlighten you by using your country as a counter example. **Every single example of French “Depravity” has an equally horrific American equivalent.** In the order they are presented in the article:
- The French support murderous dictators? The Americans support murderous dictators.
- There are attacks on Jews in France? There are attacks on Jews (and other ethnic minorities) in the United States.
- The French have supported Islamic rebels? The United States has supported Islamic rebels.
- The French invented the guillotine? The Americans invented the electric chair.
- The French handed over 10,000 Jews for execution? The Americans enslaved a whole race.
- The French kill geese in a cruel manner? Americans kill God only knows how many animals in equally cruel manners.
- Dominique de Villepin is a jerk? What, no jerks in the U.S.?
- Roman Polanski is a child rapist? Try being an altar boy in Boston.
- The French have orgies? Americans have orgies.
- People in Paris attack each other? People in the United States attack and kill each other - more than in any other industrialized country.
The point, which you have totally missed, is not that it’s valid or invalid to criticize the study of depravity. It’s that the article was **blatantly racist.** I don’t use the word often, but I will here; it was sheer, unbridled, and deliberate hatred and racism. For political reasons it depicted the French as being especially depraved, based on evidence of highly questionable relevance. If the author wanted to make a study of Western decadence, why didn’t she? Instead it was a study of things the French do that are no worse than equivalent things Americans do. Or Canadians, or Mexicans, or Spaniards, or what have you.
So why did the article attack French culture when it can’t be demonstrated than it’s worse than other cultures? Because the purpose of the article was not to attack depraved culture. It was to attack France and the French. Julia Gorin’s a racist, pure and simple.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/22 "2003-07-25T12:31:07Z")
**RickJay** , that was excellent. Please send that to Julia Gorin from the link on the page.
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### Author:  [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/23 "2003-07-25T15:37:37Z")
You know what is ironic (funny? sad? pathetic?) to me is the call to not say “French fries,” buy French wine or other products.
Not too many years ago we were in a war with China (Korea, remember?) and the Chinese were all, to the last man, woman, and child, hated commie pinko bastards who should be incinerated with a hydrogen bomb.
And now, while some call for a boycott of all things French, just about every other product I see in Wal-Mart says, “Made in China.”
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### Author:  [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/24 "2003-07-25T16:50:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> During his stay in Paris, journalist Andrew Baker (search) witnessed a cyclist stop to beat an octogenarian pedestrian unconscious after the latter threw a baguette at his head for cutting him off. According to Baker’s 2000 New York Press (search) article about his experience, the event was typical of a Paris day
This is a magnificant example of a technique sometimes seen on these Boards. In its way, the thing is a masterpiece. I really don’t know how you could edit it so as to make it worse.
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### Author:  [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/25 "2003-07-25T17:21:22Z")
From Pirates of the Caribbean…
Random Pirate: “I will kill whoever invented the word ‘Parley’”
Capt. Sparrow: “I believe that was the French!”
The French are just to easy to pick on, even Disney gets in on it!. But lets face it, if France was invaded and conquered, again, the US would be there to help them out. For as much as we bicker and fight with France they are allies, and without them the US might not even be here.
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### Author:  [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/26 "2003-07-25T17:52:28Z")
From Dob
> [@](#):
>
> Random Pirate: “I will kill whoever invented the word ‘Parley’”
> Capt. Sparrow: “I believe that was the French!”
Um…not to get too carried away with the conspiricy theories here, but I think the French DID ‘invent’ the word ‘Parley’. I saw the movie, and it didn’t sound like it was a bash to me…it was supposed to be, you know, funny.
I think that the people a Fox just demean themselves by printing such rubbish. Personally I found it funny, in a sad sort of way. I’m not a regular Fox reader…is this the norm, or is it something they just screwed up on??
-XT
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### Author:  [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/27 "2003-07-25T17:54:41Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by xtisme \*
> \*\*Doesn’t anyone feel like defending the article and bashing the French some? … Not much of a debate if no one wants to play.
> -XT \*\*
Well, if you want to play… (no orgies, please, this is US):
They are frogs and monkeys!
Chirac is in bed with Saddam… Well, he was, too!
Villepin trousers are badly pressed!
Whatever you say about Hitler, he was right to crash the French!
I go into the hate storage chambers of my soul to reload on “facts” and “moral clarity”. Stay posted; You ain’t seen nothing yet!
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### Author:  [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/28 "2003-07-25T18:40:22Z")
As for the French inventing the guillotine - not strictly true.Possibly but also likely unknown.
The device was used in England in the post Norman invasion period, possibly in the 10thC but first referances to it occur in 1280 in England.
It was supposedly invented for the execution of William Maurice in 1241.
The Guillotine did not even get it’s name until the latish 1700’s.
It was considered to be a far more humane method of execution than others, death is very fast.
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### Author:  [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/29 "2003-07-25T19:48:38Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by RickJay \*
> Since you’re American, I will try to enlighten you by using your country as a counter example.
Why are you picking on me, when we agree? My post began, “That’s an interesting question to ask, and not just about the French.”
> [@](#):
>
> It’s that the article was **blatantly racist.** I don’t use the word often, but I will here; it was sheer, unbridled, and deliberate hatred and racism.
Hatred, yes. But, I don’t think the word “racism” can properly be used if one isn’t discussing a race of people. Maybe we need an analagous word, like _culturlist_ to describe hatred of a particular culture.
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### Author:  [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/30 "2003-07-25T21:04:41Z")
The analogous word is “chauvinist” as in “being like M. Chauvin” in narrow-minded nationalism and hatred of another nation.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [July 25, 2003, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/31 "2003-07-25T21:27:41Z")
Well, no, we ARE discussing a “Race” of people, **december.**. A race of people is any identified group of people who share a common ancestry, culture, nationality, or history. Look it up if you don’t believe me. The genetic division of race is only one particular way to define it; there is certainly a “French race.”
Call it what you will - racism, or bigotry, or chauvinism. It’s disgusting.
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### Author:  [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/32 "2003-07-26T09:24:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by xtisme \*
> \*\*I dont know if there is much of a debate here, So, I guess the debate is: ARE the French uncivilized barbarians \*\*
Excuse me, there is such a thing as “Medecins Sans Frontiers”. Most Americans do not even have a foggiest idea what that means—just as they have no idea what their government’s Foreign Policy is. That translates into the Americans being a bunch of Neanderthals watching their Corporate Media “News” on the boob-tube.
Most Americans don’t even know that out of 6 billion people on this planet, they constitute a mere 280 million (\<5% of the world population) and the U.S. citizens are blindly giving Carte Blanche to their government to dominate the other 95% of the world.
France, however, with its meager 60 million population, has enough infrastructure to maintain its own nuclear power and energy, Airbus that surpasses Boeing, its own Marian space launcher, its own Rafal combat aircraft and its own Eurocopter technological base. In medicine and literature, they have many Nobel prizes, and in entertainment they have the Cannes Festival. Their public transportation, railroad, and freeways are as advanced if not superior to the U.S. And last, but not least, most well-to-do Americans would love to have the opportunity to go and live in France, at least for a while, if not forever.
The French enjoy a better quality of life than the Americans do. They are not a slave of working \>40 hours per week, they get at least 4 weeks vacations per year, have medical insurance for all, and enjoy a much better security and pension than the baby-boom generation of the US.
O’Riley says “Those Europeans are just jealous of us”. Pooh. If anybody should be jealous, it must be the few Americans who know what is going on, not your average Joe Six Pack.
So, some of the 280 million Americans think that the 60 million French people are shallow? Go on and make a mockery of the French food, wine, perfumes, art and the nudity in the Riviera. We’ll see who will have the last laugh.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/33 "2003-07-26T09:53:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Wake up call \*
> **Go on and make a mockery of the French food, wine, perfumes, art and the nudity in the Riviera.**
According the article, it’s these achievements that are part of the problem.
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### Author:  [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/34 "2003-07-26T15:30:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> - The French have orgies? Americans have orgies.
Yeah, but the appetizers aren’t nearly as good.
Disappointed though I am that this is the sole news source for a lot people, I had to chuckle that the same network that created _Temptation Island_ and _Who Wants to Marry a Multi-Millionaire?_ is acting scandalized over a book with sex in it.
Maybe it’s not the content at all, but the fact that those barbarians are actually _reading_ a _book_? With no pictures, sound bites or commercial breaks? Perverts!
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### Author:  [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/35 "2003-07-26T17:14:25Z")
Don’t give a damn about the orgies. We do them better. I got a strange, giggly feeling when reading **Wake up call** ’s post though.
I’d swear it was written by a Frenchie. And it reminded me why I always have so much fun, with the French. They’re so modest.
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### Author:  [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)
#### Post date: [July 26, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/36 "2003-07-26T17:49:59Z")
The French have orgies? Massive orgies? Why wasn’t I informed?
::Starts calculating the cost of a trip to France, and estimating the value of one of his roommate’s kidneys on the blackmarket.::
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### Author:  [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/37 "2003-07-28T07:15:02Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by gum \*
> \*\*I always have so much fun, with the French. They’re so modest. \*\*
Yes they are. If they weren’t, Dominique de Villepin would remind the US everyday: “I told you not to invade Iraq. You didn’t listen to me. Now take the consequences”.
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### Author:  [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)
#### Post date: [July 28, 2003, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/38 "2003-07-28T08:15:41Z")
heh **Wake up call** , Thanks for the laughs.
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### Author:  [@benthames](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/benthames)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/39 "2003-08-04T01:49:51Z")
if we hate the French so much, let’s send back the Statue of Liberty. That’ll show the Frogs who’s the boss. And then we can also exhume the Marquis de Lafayette and send him back home too.
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### Author:  [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)
#### Post date: [August 4, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-not-pardon-the-french/190703/40 "2003-08-04T03:27:00Z")
benthames,
Lafayette is indeed buried in American soil,
[but in France](http://www.pbs.org/ktca/liberty/chronicle/lafayette.html).
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