# Let's pit Dopers who engage in debate with Starving Artist **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389 "2009-10-28T02:33:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/21 "2009-10-28T03:48:41Z")
Human Rights Campaign? Human Rights Commission? Human Rights Council? Hillary Rodham Clinton? Human Rights Committee? Hard Rock Cafe? High Resolution Camera? Human Resources Command? Harm Reduction Coalition? Human Relations Commission? Heart Rate Control? Health Research Council? Human Rights Center? Hunting Retriever Club? Hot Rolled Coil? Hypermedia Research Centre? Hydrogen Release Compound? Human Resources Committee? Honda Racing Corporation? Home Run Contest? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/22 "2009-10-28T03:56:37Z")
So you think people should stop talking to me until I start to agree with them, is that your position? After all, that’s how you define ‘learning’ when it comes to me, isn’t it? However, having said that I can see how you’d come to feel the way you do. I’m pretty strong in my positions and it takes quite a lot to persuade me otherwise. What you don’t realize is that I tend not to get into discussions where I feel I don’t know what I’m talking about. So all you see from me are posts in areas where I do feel pretty sure of myself and I’m sure that over time it does make me seem like a know-it-all. But the reality is that this isn’t so. Another problem is the fact that I’m an outspoken conservative on a board largely populated by liberals, a fair number of whom are extremists even though they don’t think they are. I can’t think of a single conservative poster here who doesn’t routinely come in for the same types of insults as I do. I come in for more of it, but I’m a more prolific poster. It goes with the territory. I also tend to give what I get, and since most of the remarks I respond to are obnoxious, it stands to reason that I come off that way myself because I’m only one guy. Thus one person responding in kind to twenty other obnoxious ones is made to seem twenty times as bad. I’m pretty sure that my history has been that if people approach me in a polite and civil manner and seem genuinely interested in discussing something in good faith, I respond in kind. It’s also been my history that once I’ve done so, they come back and call me names and tell me I’m stupid, ignorant, etc. You, **lissener** , are a prime example of this kind of person yourself. More than once you’ve approached me in a seemingly sincere and conciliatory effort to have a discussion, and then after I politely answer in kind, you revert to form and insult me in some way. (And speaking of insults, you accused me of lying upthread. You blatantly called me a liar in so many words and you asserted that I’m a self-appointed spokesman for the Lying Liars Who Lie contingent of the board. So I’ll challenge you in the same way that I’ve challenged **mhendo** and a few others on this board who have called me a liar: cough up an instance! I have over 8,000 posts to this board, so it shouldn’t be too difficult to back up your words. You should be aware, however, that neither **mhendo** nor any of the other posters who have accused me of lying here have been able to back up their words. **mhendo** has also accused me of dishonesty in this thread, but since he’s already failed the challenge I see no reason to waste my time on him.) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/23 "2009-10-28T04:16:04Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Everything he says is wrong because he derives his philosophy from that world instead of ours. _Exactly_! I’m not wrong because I’m factually in error; I’m wrong simply because I’m a _conservative_! Thanks, I couldn’t have made the point better myself. **Euphonius Polemic** , I have seen that your efforts not to engage me don’t extend to following me around and making snide little remarks here and there, do they? You’re almost as bad at dropping cowardly little shitbombs as that idiot **Lobohan** , who likes to follow me around claiming I’m a liar because I only referred to one of two Fox clips in an OP about Obama. But now, having gotten that out of the way, how about you post this area of expertise that you are so well versed in and that I’m so woefully uninformed but outspoken about? And then there’s this: > [@Euphonious Polemic](#): > > I used to try to engage SA, but no more. The end for me came when he pretty much admitted (during a health care debate) that he did not, and would not read any cites with data that disagreed with him, and he preferred to believe in vaguely remembered anecdotes, as long as they agreed with his position." Naturally I said nothing of the kind. (I wish I had a dollar for every time I’ve had to say that around here.) But I digress. What I said was that things have become so polarized that a person doesn’t know who to trust – that everyone has an agenda and that I don’t feel I can necessarily trust any of the information that’s out there…_including_ that from right-wing sources. Thus when I’m considering something I’m not sure about, I rely on my own life experience, common sense and judgement. Not quite the same as what you said, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/24 "2009-10-28T04:25:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, there are at least two. > > But both of them share the political spectrum of the majority of the board, so their crimes are misdemeanors, not felonies. laugh out loud ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/25 "2009-10-28T04:25:42Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > _Exactly_! I’m not wrong because I’m factually in error; I’m wrong simply because I’m a _conservative_! No, you’re wrong because you’re a doddering old fool. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/26 "2009-10-28T04:31:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, but his political stance exacerbates the ire he draws, and ElvisL1ves’ political stance mitigates his. I’ve directed some pitworthy material in another thread against Bricker, so it behooves me to acknowledge that… well how could this statement be anything other than accurate? Ideological dissimilarity is apt to intensify discord. This is aside from the relative sins of SA and Elvis. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > So all you see from me are posts in areas where I do feel pretty sure of myself and I’m sure that over time it does make me seem like a know-it-all. I haven’t read enough of SA’s posts to evaluate the guy. Semi-friendly note to SA: _feeling_ certain is different than constructing a tight argument. (You may indeed construct tight arguments – I don’t know. The general point remains: I just can’t comment on its applicability.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/27 "2009-10-28T04:35:45Z")
If I recall correctly, ElvisL1ves claimed the 9/11 hijackers had been “safely based” in Montreal and refused to retract the statement even after it was soundly disproved. As a result, I find him more contemptible than SA, though for admittedly personal reasons. SA pretty much just strikes me as a pathetic troglodyte. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/28 "2009-10-28T04:37:09Z")
But, but…what about my being wrong because I’m on the other side? That’s what you said. You people slay me. You make stupid revealing accusations without being aware of it, and then when you’re real meaning is tossed back at you, you claim you meant something else entirely. Yet I’m the one who’s dishonest. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/29 "2009-10-28T04:38:33Z")
I amend my earlier statement. SA strikes me as a pathetic self-pitying troglodyte. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/30 "2009-10-28T04:38:41Z")
I was over in MPSIMS today, looking through the thread commemorating ten years of the SDMB, and I was reminded of earlier attempts to encourage posters to “send someone to Coventry,” as it were. Based on my memories of how successful those efforts were, I’m going to predict that this will not end well. Hey, am I in first with a prediction of “This will not end well”? What an MPSIMS-y thing for me to be concerned with… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/31 "2009-10-28T04:42:31Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’ve directed some pitworthy material in another thread against Bricker, so it behooves me to acknowledge that… well how could this statement be anything other than accurate? Ideological dissimilarity is apt to intensify discord. This is aside from the relative sins of SA and Elvis. I haven’t read enough of SA’s posts to evaluate the guy. Semi-friendly note to SA: _feeling_ certain is different than constructing a tight argument. (You may indeed construct tight arguments – I don’t know. The general point remains: I just can’t comment on its applicability.) [I make tight arguments in areas where I feel sure of myself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11706726&postcount=86). How’s that? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/32 "2009-10-28T04:46:24Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Including myself, up to now. Never again. > > Why do you bother? Is there another Doper with a more willfully, vigorously defended grasp on ignorance? Is there another Doper who’s put as much energy into participating in discussions here, but worked just as hard refusing to learn anything from any of them? > > Is there a more consistently dishonest Doper? > > Why, why do we continue to engage him? I move we stop doing so, until he shows a modicum of good faith in a single debate. Loosely translated: _Hey, all you cool kids, let’s all pile on that weird kid again, both because we can, and because leading it makes me feel like I’m one of you._ Fucking pathetic. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/33 "2009-10-28T04:49:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > But, but…what about my being wrong because I’m on the other side? That’s what you said. Oh bullshit, you ninny. Look at what I wrote: > [@Bosstone](#): > > **Starving Artist** lives in an entirely different world. Everything he says is wrong because he derives his philosophy from that world instead of ours. And philosophy is all it is, because he’s like a vampire, only he burns when he touches facts rather than sunlight. I didn’t say a _thing_ about you being conservative, schmuck. I said you are not living in this world. You are disconnected from reality. You are a _loony_. The other conservatives on this board can at least be argued with, even **Shodan** when he’s not in “fuck with the liberals” mode, because they all have a grounding in reality. You, on the other hand, are Grandpa Simpson with an internet connection. You want to interpret “doesn’t have a foothold in reality” as “conservative,” be my guest. But it’s not what I said, and it only shows your own biases to infer it. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/34 "2009-10-28T04:52:54Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I amend my earlier statement. SA strikes me as a pathetic self-pitying troglodyte. Sure. I point to the ills and deaths that liberal permissiveness has caused, such as the proliferation of drugs and its associated death and misery; gang activity; teen pregnancy; STDs; single-parent homes; and an educational system that can’t (or won’t) teach kids the difference between ‘there,’ ‘their’ and 'they’re, and that not every word that ends is “s” takes an apostrophe – that passes kids regardless of learning because to fail them makes them “feel bad”; the spread of AIDS; etc.; but I also criticize the fact that liberal permissiveness has turned the U.S. into a nation of virtual Jerry Springer audience members, and what everybody focuses on and tries to belittle me for are my comments on crassness and civility! I wonder why that is? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/35 "2009-10-28T04:58:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’ve challenged **mhendo** and a few others on this board who have called me a liar. I have accused you, on multiple occasions, of dishonesty. I have, on multiple occasions, explained what i mean when i talk about your dishonesty: i am referring to dishonest debating tactics, an overwhelming tendency to ignore evidence, a penchant for moving the goalposts, a complete lack of historical understanding, and a complete unwillingness to address issues in anything but the most subjective, anecdotal way. You can be, and usually are, completely dishonest even when not uttering an actual direct lie. You can find a previous iteration of this very same issue [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11329170#post11329170). I have, to my knowledge, called you a liar in exactly one thread, back in 2005. The first occasion was at the end of [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6741528#post6741528), and there are one or two more further down the page. I stand by those accusations. Interestingly, your performance in that thread is precisely indicative of the sort of dishonesty that is endemic to your posts on this message board. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/36 "2009-10-28T04:58:55Z")
This is fun and all, but I got chit to do. (And it’s interesting to see what people have to say when I’m not around. ;)) Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/37 "2009-10-28T05:01:26Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I wonder why that is? Because you blame all of the aforementioned ills on a single political party, and that makes you look like a fucking hilarious caricature? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/38 "2009-10-28T05:04:28Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Loosely translated: > _Hey, all you cool kids, let’s all pile on that weird kid again, both because we can, and because leading it makes me feel like I’m one of you._ > > Fucking pathetic. > :rolleyes: But the thing is, SA really does seem to have some sort of cognitive deficit. There are some really big dunderheads on all 7 sides of the political heptagon, but bringing up other names of other retards is a bit of a tu quoque. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/39 "2009-10-28T05:10:15Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I have accused you, on multiple occasions, of dishonesty. I have, on multiple occasions, explained what i mean when i talk about your dishonesty: i am referring to dishonest debating tactics, an overwhelming tendency to ignore evidence, a penchant for moving the goalposts, a complete lack of historical understanding, and a complete unwillingness to address issues in anything but the most subjective, anecdotal way. You can be, and usually are, completely dishonest even when not uttering an actual direct lie. > > You can find a previous iteration of this very same issue [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=11329170#post11329170). > > I have, to my knowledge, called you a liar in exactly one thread, back in 2005. The first occasion was at the end of [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=6741528#post6741528), and there are one or two more further down the page. I stand by those accusations. Interestingly, your performance in that thread is precisely indicative of the sort of dishonesty that is endemic to your posts on this message board. There’s a considerable difference between accusations of dishonesty, which is clearly subjective (and which prior to this thread you never so much as tried to cite when I challenged you), and lying which is not. Plus “dishonest” is often a synonym for lie, so it is my opinion that in calling me dishonest you are trying to imply to others that I’m lying. Which of course is dishonest in itself. > [@Euphoneous Polemic](#): > > Because you blame all of the aforementioned ills on a single political party, and that makes you look like a fucking hilarious caricature? Did I say party? Noooo, I said “liberal permissiveness” didn’t I? And what did liberal permissiveness grow out of? Liberal ideology. So, if you want to say I’m blaming it on either of those you would be correct. Today’s Democratic party is consequence of them also. Once upon a time not too long ago, Democrats said things like “_Ask not what you’re country can do for you!_” Now, after forty years of liberal permissiveness and ideological influence, it asks – nay, _demands_ – to tell us what it’s going to do for us. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/40 "2009-10-28T05:13:19Z")
And now I’m out. Carry on, pt 2. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389.md?page=3)