# Let's pit Dopers who engage in debate with Starving Artist **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 28, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389 "2009-10-28T02:33:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/81 "2009-10-28T16:24:32Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sure. I point to the ills and deaths that liberal permissiveness has caused, such as the proliferation of drugs and its associated death and misery; gang activity; teen pregnancy; STDs; single-parent homes; and an educational system that can’t (or won’t) teach kids the difference between ‘there,’ ‘their’ and 'they’re, and that not every word that ends is “s” takes an apostrophe – that passes kids regardless of learning because to fail them makes them “feel bad”; the spread of AIDS; etc.; but I also criticize the fact that liberal permissiveness has turned the U.S. into a nation of virtual Jerry Springer audience members, and what everybody focuses on and tries to belittle me for are my comments on crassness and civility! > > I wonder why that is? Because you’re wrong. Further, yours is a faith-based assertion, you haven’t the slightest proof, when pressed, you offer your life experiences and what you are pleased to think of as your “common sense”. With perfectly equal substantiation, one can offer the opposite scenario: that misery is the _cause_ of drug proliferation, not the result. America drinks, and wraps its cars around trees, America drinks, and beats the wife, America drinks, sickens and dies. Alcohol is America’s drug of choice, an astonishingly irrational choice, but there you have it. Nothing else even comes close, not within light years. Prohibition, however misguided, was not a result so much of a Puritan/Calvinist distrust of pleasure but the easily observable fact that alcohol was the curse of the working class, a rampant destroyer of men and their families. Sexual permissiveness? Been there, done that, up to my eyeballs in hippies. You know what happened? They paired off, got married, and made babies. They became Mom and Dad, and, in the fullness of time, Grandma and Grandpa. As it ever was. Are there consequences to such “permissiveness”? Sure. But my life experience and uncommon sense tells me that the consequences of ignorance and repression are far, far worse. We fight ignorance for a reason, because ignorance is dark and destructive. Forbid drink, and people will still drink, but they will enrich gangsters and drink whatever poisonous crap they brew. Forbid abortion, and women will die in alleys and taxicabs. Forbid drugs, and people will still get high, they just will buy their drugs from thugs. And just try to forbid sex! That’s you against the Goddess and buddy, you ain’t got a chance! Its not so much that permissiveness is so great, its that the oppression that is its opposite is so destructive and futile. Let the sunshine in. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/82 "2009-10-28T16:39:36Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I pit dopers who pit themselves pitting dopers who pit others who engage in the same behavior that they do in the pit while pitting the arguments of\*\* Starving Artist.\*\* Well I can certainly get on that bandwagon. On edit: **luc** , I’ve been mulling over whether I should even bother reading this thread. Thank you for the excellent reminder of why it’s worthwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/83 "2009-10-28T16:43:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Sure. I point to the ills and deaths that liberal permissiveness has caused, such as the proliferation of drugs and its associated death and misery; gang activity; teen pregnancy; STDs; single-parent homes; and an educational system that can’t (or won’t) teach kids the difference between ‘there,’ ‘their’ and 'they’re, and that not every word that ends is “s” takes an apostrophe – that passes kids regardless of learning because to fail them makes them “feel bad”; the spread of AIDS; etc.; but I also criticize the fact that liberal permissiveness has turned the U.S. into a nation of virtual Jerry Springer audience members, and what everybody focuses on and tries to belittle me for are my comments on crassness and civility! > > I wonder why that is? You have been directly proven wrong on several of these points, several times. You have been shown that public education today is [better](http://ftp.iza.org/dp3216.pdf) than in the 50s. You have been shown that teen pregnancy was at its [peak](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf) between Reagans presidency and Bush I’s term, and made its biggest decline during Clinton’s term to be lower than it was in the 50s. You have never made a legitimate connection between AIDS and liberalism. You can not back up your claim that crime is connected to liberalism. You certainly have never made a legitimate connection between liberalism and the likelihood of watching Jerry Springer. You make these same declarations in so many of your posts, but many of them are simply your personal opinions, and the others are flatly rejected by reality. This is why people accuse you of being dishonest in your debates. I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to see you being told 100 different ways exactly how your world view differs from reality, and still stubbornly clinging to the idea that you know better. It’s like listening to the Roswell nuts. Nothing anyone can say will make any difference. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/84 "2009-10-28T16:55:35Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > **curlcoat** > > **curlcoat** > > **curlcoat** Noooo! :eek: If you say her name three times, she’ll appear! ---
**Author:** ![CircleofWillis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/54ee81/32.png) [@CircleofWillis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CircleofWillis)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/85 "2009-10-28T17:07:06Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Loosely translated: > _Hey, all you cool kids, let’s all pile on that weird kid again, both because we can, and because leading it makes me feel like I’m one of you._ > > Fucking pathetic. > :rolleyes: I’m not generally a “+1” kind of guy, but… +1 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/86 "2009-10-28T17:08:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > A board whose members are so quick to call **SA** names but usually decline to do the same with people like **Der Trihs** and **Diogenes the Cynic** and the various other clowns, buffoons, assholes and dolts who drool out of the left side of their mouths is not a board whose judgment needs to be taken with much seriousness. > > Regards, > Shodan If you want to pit Der Trihs or Gonzomax or whoever for being buffoons, go right ahead. There’s no shortage of buffoons around. Whether Der Trihs is a buffoon or not (hint: he is) doesn’t have anything to do with whether Starving Artist is a buffoon or not (question left as an exercise for the student). You can’t expect people to refrain from complaining about one particular irritating buffoon–Starving Artist–just because they haven’t complained about all the other irritating buffoons. It’s a classic tu quoque. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/87 "2009-10-28T17:11:23Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If you want to pit Der Trihs or Gonzomax or whoever for being buffoons, go right ahead. There’s no shortage of buffoons around. > > Whether Der Trihs is a buffoon or not (hint: he is) doesn’t have anything to do with whether Starving Artist is a buffoon or not (question left as an exercise for the student). > > You can’t expect people to refrain from complaining about one particular irritating buffoon–Starving Artist–just because they haven’t complained about all the other irritating buffoons. It’s a classic tu quoque. That and it would take quite a long time to make a systematic and exhaustive catalogue of buffoons. The last time I thought about doing that, I recalled that I had an appointment to have my cock tread on by the entire Chinese army. That seemed like a more productive use of my time. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/88 "2009-10-28T17:34:59Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If you want to pit Der Trihs or Gonzomax or whoever for being buffoons, go right ahead. There’s no shortage of buffoons around. > > Whether Der Trihs is a buffoon or not (hint: he is) doesn’t have anything to do with whether Starving Artist is a buffoon or not (question left as an exercise for the student). > > You can’t expect people to refrain from complaining about one particular irritating buffoon–Starving Artist–just because they haven’t complained about all the other irritating buffoons. It’s a classic tu quoque. Not only that, but despite **Shodan** ’s assertion that most Dopers generally “decline” to call **Der Trihs** names, the fact is that **Der Trihs** has probably been Pitted and abused about as much as any other individual on these message boards, and many of the people laying on the abuse have been the board’s liberals and leftists. In my experience, **Der Trihs** ’s only real area of complete irrationality and unwillingness to consider alternative views is in the area of religion. I think he’s far too dismissive and dishonest in debates over religion. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/89 "2009-10-28T17:52:46Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to see you being told 100 different ways exactly how your world view differs from reality, and still stubbornly clinging to the idea that you know better. It’s like listening to the Roswell nuts. Nothing anyone can say will make any difference. Exactly. When provided with a cite that is completely on-point, from an unbiased source (like a government site that provides surgical waiting time means and medians), **SA** will not acknowledge that the facts are in opposition to his thinking. Rather you get a variation on: “I can’t necessarily trust any of the information that’s out there. Thus when I’m considering something I’m not sure about, I rely on my own life experience, common sense and judgement.” Well here’s a suggestion if you feel you can’t trust any of the factual information out there, and you are relying on your own “life experience”: Shut the fuck up and stay out of debates and discussions. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/90 "2009-10-28T18:02:21Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > Fair enough. I did read the OP, and I see what you’re saying. But let’s face it, it was inevitable that the thread would turn into this type of argument, because _every_ political thread here turns into that kind of argument, especially when the one particular person you choose to criticize is practically synonymous with a particular political stance around here, and especially especially when the pitter and pittee are on opposite sides. It is that utter futility and predictability that is irritating me this morning. And we could begin listing which people are generally responsible for that, but then that would be just more finger-pointing, which is exactly what I’m talking about. > > And saying that I am the problem is more than a little laughable, considering I have almost never participated in any political thread of any kind in my near-decade on the boards. I have quite deliberately kept my political views off of the boards because I don’t have the slightest interest in debating them. > > As for this particular thread, it had already degenerated into an us-vs-them screed long before I showed up, and my goal, if any, was to call attention to that fact in a vain attempt to reverse or ameliorate it. It wasn’t aimed at the OP in particular, but more at the mess the thread had rapidly, inevitably, and oh-so-predictably descended into. I agree. And for what it’s worth, I was considering bringing that up. Maybe I’ll just start a new thread on the topic; I’ve been ruminating on it a lot lately. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/91 "2009-10-28T18:03:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And both of them are **gonzomax**. I guess I have to settle for being right. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/92 "2009-10-28T18:07:52Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Dude, that was a tongue-in-cheek post. Nothing more. I probably should have used a smiley. The rest of my comments about **Starving Artist** are genuine, but that post was not intended to be taken seriously. TROLL!! > [@](#): > > Not only that, but despite Shodan’s assertion that most Dopers generally “decline” to call Der Trihs names, the fact is that Der Trihs has probably been Pitted and abused about as much as any other individual on these message boards, and many of the people laying on the abuse have been the board’s liberals and leftists. Interestingly enough, he has been Pitted sixteen times that I can discover. Relatively few of them were started by lefties - **Liberal** , **Monty** , **xtisme** , **FriarTed** - not really lefties that I can see. And there is a lot of this kind of thing in the various Pittings - > [@](#): > > his take on what the core of religion is about and how atheists are perceived is pretty close to the truth. > [@](#): > > I side with Der Trihs. Is he a little extreme? A lot extreme? Yeah, he is. But some of the stuff he says needs to be said. > [@](#): > > Der Trihs can come off as abrasive (understatement?) but I think the message is spot on. Nonetheless… Going thru them, I believe you are correct - much of the Pittings consist of people saying “I agree with much of what he says, but I wish he wouldn’t be such an asshole”. So, your point is well taken. I still maintain that **Starving Artist** deserves much less abuse (and the Usual Suspects deserve much more), but you are correct, **Der Trihs** gets more shit than I remembered. > [@](#): > > In my experience, Der Trihs’s only real area of complete irrationality and unwillingness to consider alternative views is in the area of religion. I think he’s far too dismissive and dishonest in debates over religion. Religion, abortion, and the Republican party. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/93 "2009-10-28T18:10:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Religion, abortion, and the Republican party. You’re forgetting the U.S. Armed forces. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/94 "2009-10-28T18:11:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > (and the Usual Suspects deserve much more) So go start a thread in Cafe Society if you think it wasn’t such a hot movie, sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/95 "2009-10-28T18:12:58Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > No, you’re wrong because you’re a doddering old fool. He is not old. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/96 "2009-10-28T18:37:21Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > There used to be better dishonest debaters, but that was back in the 50’s before the hippies fucked everything up. Win. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/97 "2009-10-28T18:53:42Z")
And nobody even thanked us! Because if ever there were a culture that deserved a jolly good rogering, it was Ozzie and Harriet America. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/98 "2009-10-28T18:53:53Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > That and it would take quite a long time to make a systematic and exhaustive catalogue of buffoons. Isn’t there an Audubon Field Guide? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/99 "2009-10-28T18:56:32Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > …On edit: **luc** , I’ve been mulling over whether I should even bother reading this thread. Thank you for the excellent reminder of why it’s worthwhile. Awww, shucks, just another smartass peckerwood from Waco! But kind words are never mispoken. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389/100 "2009-10-28T19:06:44Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Win. Apropos of not much, but can we get rid of the “win” post when somebody says something clever? It’s hackneyed. It’s lazy. I know you want to fist bump the guy and say “Good One!”, bur this is text. You could have said things like: “fuck Jane Fonda” or “I miss Joe McCarthy” or “I blame _Laugh In_” or “I really want to fuck Jane Fonda” or “my God, Jane Fonda was hot. You remember _Barbarella_? Man, I wasn’t even born when that movie was made, but I want a piece of that. Ted Turner got some, why can’t I? I grew up in Atlanta, too. Did she go to AOL with the TimeWarner deal? If so, do you think if I write them a letter will they send me a free sample of that ass?” I seem to have digressed. My point is that “win” is just a lazy, hackneyed, and stupid post. It’s a waste of bandwith. Don’t do it again. ETA: Is _Barbarella_ on hulu? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pit-dopers-who-engage-in-debate-with-starving-artist/515389.md?page=6)