# Let's pretend I'm going to prison. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 23, 2006, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860 "2006-08-23T06:11:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/41 "2006-08-24T05:20:10Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Why? The arresting officer had no knowledge of the children nor any direct responsibility for them. [/QUOTE] He directly caused the children to be deprived of a caregiver. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/42 "2006-08-24T06:23:40Z")
No, the mother caused that by breaking the law and then deciding not to tell anyone she had left her children alone. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/43 "2006-08-24T06:27:29Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] No, the mother caused that by breaking the law [/quote] That’s an **indirect** cause. > [@](#): > > and then deciding not to tell anyone she had left her children alone. So much for the right to remain silent, eh? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/44 "2006-08-24T06:35:26Z")
[QUOTE=Mr2001] That’s an **indirect** cause. So much for the right to remain silent, eh? [/QUOTE] So because the mother didn’t want to admit to breaking the law the officer who arrested her is at fault? That doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/45 "2006-08-24T06:56:58Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] So because the mother didn’t want to admit to breaking the law the officer who arrested her is at fault? That doesn’t make any sense. [/QUOTE] Charging her with abandonment in the first place is what doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/46 "2006-08-24T07:03:09Z")
[QUOTE=Mr2001] Charging her with abandonment in the first place is what doesn’t make sense. [/QUOTE] Um she left her children alone and when she learned that she would be unable to return to care for them she didn’t even attempt to arrange for someone else to do so. That sure sounds like abandonment to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/47 "2006-08-24T07:14:08Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] Um she left her children alone and when she learned that she would be unable to return to care for them she didn’t even attempt to arrange for someone else to do so. That sure sounds like abandonment to me. [/QUOTE] Only if leaving them alone in the first place would’ve counted as abandonment. After that, it was out of her hands - she obviously couldn’t return to care for them herself, and remaining silent after being arrested is both one’s legal right and very common legal advice. (And for all we know, she might’ve had no family or friends to take care of them even if she were able to speak privately.) Maybe it’s just me, but it seems far beyond hypocritical to put someone in jail, then charge them again for failing to meet an obligation that they were unable to meet because they were in jail. Kinda like that classic example of chutzpah, the kid who murders his parents and then begs for mercy because he’s an orphan. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/48 "2006-08-24T07:23:36Z")
And kinda like complaining because someone who was demonstrably an unfit mother had her children taken away for being an unfit mother. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/49 "2006-08-24T12:49:33Z")
[QUOTE=Mr2001] Only if leaving them alone in the first place would’ve counted as abandonment. After that, it was out of her hands - she obviously couldn’t return to care for them herself, and remaining silent after being arrested is both one’s legal right and very common legal advice. (And for all we know, she might’ve had no family or friends to take care of them even if she were able to speak privately.) Maybe it’s just me, but it seems far beyond hypocritical to put someone in jail, then charge them again for failing to meet an obligation that they were unable to meet because they were in jail. Kinda like that classic example of chutzpah, the kid who murders his parents and then begs for mercy because he’s an orphan. [/QUOTE] What’re you smoking? Her right to remain silent is there for self-incriminating speach only. Telling someone that you have kids at home that need attention does not have anything whatsoever to do with the crime she just committed. That’s like saying she couldn’t tell the cops she was thirsty or had to go to the bathroom because she’s excersizing her right to remain silent. It’s her right to remain silent _about the crime she is being accused of_. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/50 "2006-08-24T13:36:46Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] What’re you smoking? Her right to remain silent is there for self-incriminating speach only. [/quote] I don’t think it’s limited to that, but I’d welcome clarification from a lawyer. > [@](#): > > That’s like saying she couldn’t tell the cops she was thirsty or had to go to the bathroom because she’s excersizing her right to remain silent. No, it’s like saying she wouldn’t _have to_ tell the cops she was thirsty or had to go to the bathroom. Do you have an example of someone being charged with an extra crime because he didn’t tell the cops he had to use the john? ---
**Author:** ![Nature\_s\_Call](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nature_s_call/32/19006_2.png) [@Nature\_s\_Call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nature_s_Call)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/51 "2006-08-24T18:16:21Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] 3 - You do not cease to exist as a human being while you’re in prison. While there are some legal limitations on convicts, they can still conduct their business and legal affairs while inside prison. There’s nothing preventing you from sending a monthly check to your bank or landlord to maintain ownership of your residence while you’re “away”. [/QUOTE] The cite for this, of course, is in the rules to Monopoly. You still collect rent even if you’re in jail. ---
**Author:** ![whyiseveryonestupid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ac8455/32.png) [@whyiseveryonestupid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whyiseveryonestupid)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/52 "2006-08-24T19:29:28Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] What’re you smoking? Her right to remain silent is there for self-incriminating speach only. Telling someone that you have kids at home that need attention does not have anything whatsoever to do with the crime she just committed. That’s like saying she couldn’t tell the cops she was thirsty or had to go to the bathroom because she’s excersizing her right to remain silent. It’s her right to remain silent _about the crime she is being accused of_. [/QUOTE] But provided she was arrested with just cause (or reasonable suspicion) and not just hauled away for the sake of it then the police have done everything the way they are supposed to, it is down to the person to take some responsibility. Yes they have the right to remain silent but they should use that right sensibly. like if they had easy to explain, cast iron proof they weren’t guilty you’d expect them to mention that pretty quickly, or if they had a medical condition they needed help with etc. The right to remain silent doesn’t mean you’re absolved of your normal responsibilities to yourself or other people! ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/53 "2006-08-24T21:56:18Z")
She was not charged with the crime of having kids. She was charged with the crime of abandonment that stemmed from not telling anyone that her kids were alone. She wouldn’t even have had to tell the cops directly; she could have told someone she knew, in the course of her one phone call. If she cared about her kids, she would have **chosen** to tell someone they were alone. Hell, it wouldn’t even have been a choice. A caring parent would not have been able to stop herself from saying “But what about my kids?”. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/54 "2006-08-24T22:32:01Z")
[QUOTE=whyiseveryonestupid!] Yes they have the right to remain silent but they should use that right sensibly. like if they had easy to explain, cast iron proof they weren’t guilty you’d expect them to mention that pretty quickly [/quote] Maybe, maybe not. Everything I’ve read on this board and heard from the ACLU (for example) says you’re a fool to say _anything_ without a lawyer present. If you aren’t about to say “Am I free to go?”, “I don’t consent to any search”, or “I need to speak to a lawyer”, you keep your mouth shut, because otherwise you run the risk of slipping up and saying something you don’t mean, saying something you don’t want them to hear, etc… incriminating yourself accidentally. > [@Rilchiam](#): > > She was charged with the crime of abandonment that stemmed from not telling anyone that her kids were alone. And the reason they were alone was… (drum roll)… she was arrested. Remember the Pottery Barn rule? You prevent a parent from caring for her kids, you take responsibility for caring for them yourself. You aren’t sure whether she has kids or not because she didn’t mention them and you didn’t think to ask? Tough. Look for birth records or school enrollment if that’s what you need to do. Putting people in jail isn’t supposed to be a piece of cake. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/55 "2006-08-24T23:02:30Z")
[QUOTE=Mr2001] And the reason they were alone was… (drum roll)… she was arrested. [/quote] Did she commit her crime in the home? > [@](#): > > Remember the Pottery Barn rule? You prevent a parent from caring for her kids, you take responsibility for caring for them yourself. You aren’t sure whether she has kids or not because she didn’t mention them and you didn’t think to ask? Tough. Look for birth records or school enrollment if that’s what you need to do. Putting people in jail isn’t supposed to be a piece of cake. You don’t think the police have enough to do? So, let’s say they have extra leisure time to call around to the possibly dozens of local schools and to all of the surrounding county courthouses to see if she’s ever had kids. (I guess it’s “tough” for them if she had kids in another state.) If they do find them, how do they know if the kids are living with her? Are they then allowed to go search her house to look to see if kids are present? If there’s a pound of crack laying out on the table in plain sight, do they get to add that charge to her docket? What about if it’s not a kid but an elderly parent or a disable sibling that she’s caring for? Do the cops have to check for that as well? The way I see it, the cops have NO responsibility in this matter. Her children are _her_ responsibility, plain and simple. If she cannot care for them, for whatever reason, she should make arrangements for them to be cared for by a responsible person. She gets one phone call. If she didn’t want to tell the cops, she should have told her attorney (or whomever she called) to go see to them. Your responsibilities as a parent do not shift to someone else’s shoulders when you’re taken into custody. (Hell, inmates in prison sometimes have their paltry wages docked for child support!) ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/56 "2006-08-24T23:19:58Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] Did she commit her crime in the home? [/quote] As I said, if leaving the house in the first place would’ve counted as abandonment, then the charge is fair. If it only became abandonment when she was prevented from returning, then it isn’t. > [@](#): > > You don’t think the police have enough to do? Let them hire some more people. If it means the end of piling on stupid charges like this one, I’ll gladly vote for the tax increase. > [@](#): > > If they do find them, how do they know if the kids are living with her? Are they then allowed to go search her house to look to see if kids are present? No, I think knocking on the door would be fine. > [@](#): > > What about if it’s not a kid but an elderly parent or a disable sibling that she’s caring for? Do the cops have to check for that as well? Only if she has a legal obligation to them that she’s unable to fulfill due to her arrest. > [@](#): > > The way I see it, the cops have NO responsibility in this matter. Her children are _her_ responsibility, plain and simple. A lot of things that _were_ her responsibility stopped being her responsibility the moment she got arrested, like food, clothing, and medical treatment. If you’re going to prevent someone from fulfilling their responsibilities, you have an ethical obligation to take those responsibilities on yourself. > [@](#): > > She gets one phone call. If she didn’t want to tell the cops, she should have told her attorney (or whomever she called) to go see to them. What if she didn’t know anyone who could care for them, or the person she called decided not to do it? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/57 "2006-08-25T00:23:11Z")
Okay, 2001, let’s see how far you’re willing to follow this foolish logic. Let’s suppose instead of being arrested, the mother had been involved in a car accident and was taken to a hospital. Where she was fully conscious but once again refused to tell anyone her kids were home alone. Would you charge the driver of the other car with engangering the welfare of a child? Would you charge the staff of the emergency room? Now suppose another scenario. Mom got stuck in traffic for several hours. Do you feel that all the other drivers are responsible for her kids? Suppose the traffic jam was caused by a guy who had a flat tire. Does having a flat tire make him responsible for the children of every person whose car gets delayed? Or can we arrest the manufacturer of the tire for not making it more puncture proof? One more scenario to consider. Suppose Mom decided to leave her kids alone at home because she was shopping for shoes. Should the owner of the shoe store or the clerk be held liable because no effort was made to determine whether this customer had made arrangements for her children while she was shopping? I’m curious on how far you feel responsibility should be delegated. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/58 "2006-08-25T01:27:16Z")
[QUOTE=Mr2001] As I said, if leaving the house in the first place would’ve counted as abandonment, then the charge is fair. If it only became abandonment when she was prevented from returning, then it isn’t. [/quote] One could make the argument that it was her actions which\* caused\* that prevention, but I’ll let that go. > [@](#): > > Let them hire some more people. If it means the end of piling on stupid charges like this one, I’ll gladly vote for the tax increase. Hey, I’m all for whatever gives law enforcement increased fnding, but I doubt if it’ll fly with most voters: “We need more officers to make sure criminals aren’t abandoning their children.” Most people would reply that this is what CPS is for, not the police. Perhaps some sort of system could be designed which would inform police through a computer check but again, I don’t see this as the problem of the police. I would support such a thing only out of concern for the children. What if one of the children were injured or ill and there was no way to contact her? (Emergency care is given if parents cannot be found to consent, but there are a lot of painful or miserable ailments which don’t qualify as “emergencies.” The poor kid could suffer for days until she was located.) I also have horrified visions of children being left to fend for themselves for god-knows how long. I have no sympathy for her whatsoever, nor do I see any unfairness. Any person who is selfish enough to neglect to mention their children are stranded without care deserves whatever charges can be legally applied. She had a _duty_ to report that those children were uncared for. > [@](#): > > No, I think knocking on the door would be fine. When I was a latchkey kid, I was told never to open the door to anyone. My parents made an exception for police officers, but they did not have the automatic mistrust of police officers which plagues some of our communities. Secondly, if the children had left the house, or if they were injured, the couldn’t come to the door. > [@](#): > > Only if she has a legal obligation to them that she’s unable to fulfill due to her arrest. She was in no way incapactitated in fulfilling her obligations. She could have told her friend or a lawyer to have the kids cared for, and barring that, bit the fucking bullet and tell the cops. Personally, I don’t feel that any possibility of self-incrimination trumps that obligation. And apparently, due to the fact that charges were filed, the law agrees with me. > [@](#): > > A lot of things that _were_ her responsibility stopped being her responsibility the moment she got arrested, like food, clothing, and medical treatment. If you’re going to prevent someone from fulfilling their responsibilities, you have an ethical obligation to take those responsibilities on yourself. The police would not be responsible for ensuring that the rent on her apartment, or the loan for her car, or her credit card bills had been paid-- those are obligations. They would not stop by to check to make sure her cat had been fed, even though she has a legal responsibility under animal cruelty laws to ensure that the animal has fresh water and food. > [@](#): > > What if she didn’t know anyone who could care for them, or the person she called decided not to do it? If no one she knew would take care of them, she should have reported that to the police. The children would have been taken into the system. Regardless of whether she liked it or not _children need to be fed_. What was her other choice again? Let them starve? Now, if she had entrusted the children to the care of someone she felt was responsible and that person failed to care for the children as promised, they would be the ones who would be facing charges. At that point, she had a reasonable expectation that the children were being cared for and cannot be held accountable if they were not. ---
**Author:** ![CowPatty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/439d5e/32.png) [@CowPatty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CowPatty)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/59 "2006-08-25T06:07:07Z")
If you google the name “Dakeysha Lee” you’ll find lots of stories like [this one](http://www.canadiancrc.com/articles/CBA_Tot_Home_Alone_01OCT03.htm) and [this one](http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/09/30/toddler.alone/index.html) about a two-year-old girl who was left alone for nearly three weeks while her mother was behind bars. The child survived by drinking from the toilet and eating raw pasta, mustard, ketchup. Her mother was charged with with child abuse and child neglect and could have received five years in prison for each. Instead she pled no contest to one count of child abuse and was placed on 18 months probation. ([Link](http://www.news4jax.com/news/3914078/detail.html) ) :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860/60 "2006-08-25T14:40:03Z")
This has already been answered, but I’ll just add. . . Locally, a new restaurant opened a while back. Within a month of its opening, the owner was arrested for drug trafficking and sent to the pokey. The sign on the restaurant (the big one seen from the highway) for months touted their “grand opening” and the door still posted their hours. No notice anywhere about it being closed. Nothing. Finally a Mexican restaurant moved into it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-pretend-im-going-to-prison/369860.md?page=2)