# Let's punish the Patriots! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2007, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844 "2007-09-12T00:04:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![KSO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@KSO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KSO)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/61 "2007-09-13T16:32:10Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] We still don’t know that the Jets knew what was going on. [/QUOTE] I’m in Connecticut so this story has gotten a lot of play. Both Belichick and Mangini are Wesleyan University guys, and Mangini was an assistant to Belichick for years. One of the local sports reporters has said that Mangini has known about this stuff for years and has been trying for a long time to catch Belichick in the act. I do think this is a bit of a tempest in a teapot–if every coach ISN’T trying to steal signals, he’s a slacker. But, it is against the rules, they got caught and the NFL has to do something. I think a hefty fine and a full suspension of Belichick for a week or two would be appropriate–no involvement in game prep, no practices, at home for the games. A couple of questions, though–is it OK for a team to assign someone to do nothing but watch the opposing coach and try to figure out signals? If so, then what does it matter if it’s done on the fly or via videotape? It seems to me the video is important only for post-game analysis of seeing what signal was made and then what play or defense was run. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/62 "2007-09-13T16:41:08Z")
[QUOTE=KSO] I’m in Connecticut so this story has gotten a lot of play. Both Belichick and Mangini are Wesleyan University guys, and Mangini was an assistant to Belichick for years. One of the local sports reporters has said that Mangini has known about this stuff for years and has been trying for a long time to catch Belichick in the act. [/QUOTE] Yeah, I’ve reconsidered that - the most reasonable explanation is that Mangini knew about this precisely because the team was doing it while he was there. Why he didn’t alert the league last year I don’t know, but there you go. Incidentally, I’ve been waiting to read Bill Simmons’ public crow-eating column, and I enjoyed it. By the end, of course, he’s mostly saying “people hate the Patriots” and “other teams cheat too.” ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/63 "2007-09-13T16:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Yeah, I’ve reconsidered that - the most reasonable explanation is that Mangini knew about this precisely because the team was doing it while he was there. Why he didn’t alert the league last year I don’t know, but there you go. Incidentally, I’ve been waiting to read Bill Simmons’ public crow-eating column, and I enjoyed it. By the end, of course, he’s mostly saying “people hate the Patriots” and “other teams cheat too.” [/QUOTE] The league was aware of it last year but I don’t think they found the smoking gun until the opening game. The stores I heard stated there were at least two games last year where the cheating was suspected. Don’t know if Mangini snitched. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/64 "2007-09-13T17:03:12Z")
But doesn’t the blatancy of this strike you guys as something odd? I mean, the NFL as a whole had been warned, the Patriots in particular (apparently) had been warned, and Belichik was going up against Mangini! It’s not like the camerman on the sidelines was hiding – he was in plain sight. The notion that Belichik thought he could get away with it strains credulity. It seems to me – more than ever, in fact – that he was doing it on purpose, hoping to get caught. For what purposes, it’s hard to say. Chalk it up to typical Belichikian deviousness. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/65 "2007-09-13T17:14:28Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] It seems to me – more than ever, in fact – that he was doing it on purpose, hoping to get caught. For what purposes, it’s hard to say. Chalk it up to typical Belichikian deviousness. [/QUOTE] No, sorry - I don’t think he’s that smart. This reminds me of people who said Karl Rove was losing the '06 elections on purpose, the implied reasoning being that “geniuses” never screw up and if they do something that looks like a screwup, it must be intentional. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/66 "2007-09-13T17:34:30Z")
Ha! That’s what he wants you to think. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/67 "2007-09-13T17:42:48Z")
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac] Ha! That’s what he wants you to think. [/QUOTE] At the very least, I’d like to have the same protection where people assume I mean to do everything I do. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![rhythmonly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee59a6/32.png) [@rhythmonly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhythmonly)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/68 "2007-09-13T20:15:49Z")
I was listening to KNBR on the way home the other day, and the guest was Lincoln Kennedy. According to the ex-Raider, every team in the league does this. He thought it was pretty funny that someone was finally busted for it. ---
**Author:** ![KSO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@KSO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KSO)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/69 "2007-09-14T00:51:08Z")
ESPN has a blurb up that Belichick has been fined $500,000, the club has been fined $250,000, and they will lose a first round pick if they make the playoffs; if not, they lose second and third round picks. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/70 "2007-09-14T03:00:04Z")
I personally think the punishment should’ve been more severe if only because there are reports that the Pats did the same thing during a game against the Detroit Lions. If you actually think that you need to seek out some sort of edge to defeat the Detroit Lions, you should be banned from all professional sports. Or as Detroit Free Press columnist Drew Sharp put it, Belichik should be forced to coach the Lions. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/71 "2007-09-14T03:55:15Z")
[QUOTE=KSO] ESPN has a blurb up that Belichick has been fined $500,000, the club has been fined $250,000, and they will lose a first round pick if they make the playoffs; if not, they lose second and third round picks. [/QUOTE] That seems like a good penalty. A little harsher than I would have predicted, but I think it’s smart. It hurts the coach because he loses a big chunk of money, it hurts the organization for lack of institutional control and it has a real, tangible football effect in the value of a important draft pick. I like it. ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/72 "2007-09-14T07:54:47Z")
I gotta think that if Belicheck really believed it was cheating and getting an unfair advantage, and he STILL wanted to do it despite that belief, he certainly would have used much more discreet spy equipment- undetectable video camera sunglasses with a handheld zoom control, etc. Certainly something they could get for a few grand. He’s not an idiot. The fact that they used an ordinary camera guy with an ordinary camera must mean that its either commonplace around the NFL, or doesnt gain more of an advantage over using binoculars and writing down signals besides convenience, therefore he didn’t think it would be a big deal if he _was_ caught. The Patriot fans who are in arrogant denial are nausiating to say the least, as are those Schadenfreuders who really want this to be bigger than it is, especially when you hear it from players like the Eagles superbowl team who likely know darn well that the advantage gained by those tactics is marginal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/73 "2007-09-14T15:24:45Z")
Some of the Patriots’ harshest critics are the Dolphins fans (including yours truly) who remember the 1982 “snowplow incident”. To read the posts on some sports boards, the Patriots have pulled all kinds of unethical and illegal BS over the years, with the latest scandal being just the top of the iceberg. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/74 "2007-09-14T15:33:06Z")
[QUOTE=rhythmonly] I was listening to KNBR on the way home the other day, and the guest was Lincoln Kennedy. [/QUOTE] Does he have a secretary named Kennedy Lincoln? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/75 "2007-09-14T15:58:36Z")
[QUOTE=rhythmonly] According to the ex-Raider, every team in the league does this. He thought it was pretty funny that someone was finally busted for it. [/QUOTE] So now we are supposed to trust the word of an Oakland Raider? What is the world coming to? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/76 "2007-09-14T16:00:43Z")
The Timberwolves lost four first rounders for the contract stunt they pulled with Joe Smith. The Pats could have gotten worse punishment than this. By the way, Tom Brady hits 50 consecutive weeks on the injury report this week - a streak worthy of DiMaggio. The NFL is letting fake injury reports go unpunished I guess. With all the talent the Pats have why do they need to pull this shit all the damn time? ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/77 "2007-09-14T16:12:09Z")
[QUOTE=Omniscient] That seems like a good penalty. A little harsher than I would have predicted, but I think it’s smart. It hurts the coach because he loses a big chunk of money, it hurts the organization for lack of institutional control and it has a real, tangible football effect in the value of a important draft pick. I like it. [/QUOTE] Me, too. I’m going to go the hyperbole route and call it Solomonic. It’s on the harsh side of fair, which is where Goodell needs to come in at this early stage of his tenure. The football world will feel that the Patriots and Belichik got more than a wrist-slap, and even the Patriots and their fans can feel they got their just deserts and can move on. The most likely consequence for the team is to lose a first-round draft pick, which sounds harsh – but remember, the Patriots had two picks for next year anyway. And one of them was for taking on Randy Moss! If he turns out to have a monster year, that pick would have felt somewhat undeserved anyway. Morever, the Patriots now can have some quasi-assurance that other teams won’t be videotaping _their_ defensive signals. A good outcome all around. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/78 "2007-09-14T16:29:19Z")
[QUOTE=Harborwolf] Or as Detroit Free Press columnist Drew Sharp put it, Belichik should be forced to coach the Lions. [/QUOTE] Hey, we still have an Eighth Amendment in this country. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Burton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844/79 "2007-09-14T16:41:27Z")
The lack of any suspension says Goodell is not what he appeared to be. There should have been a long suspension. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-punish-the-patriots/418844.md?page=3)