# Let's Rank the US Presidents **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 11, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505 "2006-01-11T16:24:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Renato\_Marmaduque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e480ec/32.png) [@Renato\_Marmaduque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renato_Marmaduque)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/21 "2006-01-11T21:59:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why did you rank Hoover so low? Do you think he did something to cause the Great Depression, or could have done something to stop it? (I ask because Hoover is sometimes cited as a very intellectually qualified president; for what that’s worth.) Well, yeah, its because of the Depression. He agreed to one of the largest tax increases in American history. This probably made the depression worse. The Revenue act raised taxes on the highest incomes from 25% to 63%. Hoover raised corporate taxes by 15% and doubled the estate tax. Hoover’s ideas about the economy just made the depression worse. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/22 "2006-01-11T22:10:03Z")
> [@Renato Marmaduque](#): > > He did defeat Tripoli, but kept on paying tribute to three other Barbary nations and also had to pay ransom to secure the release of hostages held in Tripoli. Ah, true enough. At the time, however, America probably didn’t have the muscle to smack them down all that far away. Remember how big a change it was just to kill some pirates in Europe’s bathtub. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/23 "2006-01-11T22:29:40Z")
I mostly like the list, but I’d move Truman up to “Great.” He made the strategic calls that brought the war againt Japan to and end, his implementation of the Marshall Plan saved Western Europe from drowning in war poverty and debt, and his ordering the Berlin airlift proved to the Soviets that the U.S. would remain a force to be reckoned with in Europe. I’d also downgrade Bush I to below average. In addition to the economic problems of the early 90’s, his wishy-washy behavior in the aftermath of the Gulf’s success brought about a Shia massacre in Iraq. He did a great job of kicking Saddam out of Kuwait, but - and I’m saying this realizing what a mess it is trying to install a new government in Iraq - he left Saddam in charge of his country, essentially telling Saddam that he can afford to gamble people’s lives and come out no worse for losing. ---
**Author:** ![Renato\_Marmaduque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e480ec/32.png) [@Renato\_Marmaduque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renato_Marmaduque)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/24 "2006-01-11T22:39:56Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > It’s funny you say that, because Carter ordered the CIA to start providing arms to the resistence within days of the Soviet invasion. That program was related to the whole episode I mentioned earlier about a picture of Zbig making its way into the rumor mill, and some unknowledgable folks started making up stories about how he went to Pakistan to take potshots at Soviets, or something like that. The picture that got it all started is [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Brzezinski-BinLaden.jpg) > > And if Reagan gets credit for spending the Soviet Union into bankruptcy, why isn’t there any credit for Carter allowing – or arguably helping – the Soviet Union to get involved in their own Vietnam? [Cite.](http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/episodes/20/documents/brez.carter/) > > I think you need to learn a little bit more about Afghanistan before coming to such concrete conclusions on US policy on the Soviet intervention. I stand corrected. However, Carter should have at least appeared much tougher against the Soviet threat. He appeared quite impotent during it. I still mantain that Carter’s presidency was one of the worst. The Misery Index rose 50% and Carter looked pathetic during the Hostage Crisis. He ignored the plight of the people of East Timor and abandoned diplomatic relations with Taiwan. He sought to pull troops out of South Korea, something which he fortunately didn’t do. [Cite](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/korea_park.htm) and [cite](http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/index.jsp?section=papers&code=94-D_61) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/25 "2006-01-11T22:41:16Z")
> [@Renato Marmaduque](#): > > However, I don’t think the New Deal itself got us out of the depression. Explain why the depression worsened during 1938. FYI, I just started two new threads to discuss this: “Was the New Deal a success or failure?” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=353693](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=353693) “What caused (and what ended) the Great Depression?” – [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=353695](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=353695) Feel free to weigh in. Fight ignorance! ---
**Author:** ![Renato\_Marmaduque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e480ec/32.png) [@Renato\_Marmaduque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renato_Marmaduque)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/26 "2006-01-11T22:47:47Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > I mostly like the list, but I’d move Truman up to “Great.” He made the strategic calls that brought the war againt Japan to and end, his implementation of the Marshall Plan saved Western Europe from drowning in war poverty and debt, and his ordering the Berlin airlift proved to the Soviets that the U.S. would remain a force to be reckoned with in Europe. Yes, I’d consider that option. Though he should’ve done more to stop Mao. > [@cmkeller](#): > > I’d also downgrade Bush I to below average. In addition to the economic problems of the early 90’s, his wishy-washy behavior in the aftermath of the Gulf’s success brought about a Shia massacre in Iraq. He did a great job of kicking Saddam out of Kuwait, but - and I’m saying this realizing what a mess it is trying to install a new government in Iraq - he left Saddam in charge of his country, essentially telling Saddam that he can afford to gamble people’s lives and come out no worse for losing. I know I should bring Bush down to above average or average (below average is too low, I think, since he did save Kuwait and Panama). Problem is, if I bring Bush down, I have to shift Ford up, and I just don’t think Ford was a near great either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/27 "2006-01-11T22:51:25Z")
> [@Renato Marmaduque](#): > > Like JFK, Bush Sr. is ranked as a near great simply because he was better than his successors. . . . And he “spearheaded” the negotioations for NAFTA. Don’t tell me you regard NAFTA as an “achievement”! It doesn’t seem to have done hte U.S. or Mexico any good, so far. (Canada, maybe.) See this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315669](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315669) > [@Renato Marmaduque](#): > > The Shah extended suffrage to women. So did Saddam Hussein. So what? The shah was a dictator. What good is suffrage without elections (that actually mean something)? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/28 "2006-01-11T22:53:19Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > Of course, if the US hadn’t overthrown the democratically elected leader in the 1950’s (whose name escapes me at the moment, I’m sorry to admit) in favor of the Shah, Iran probably wouldn’t be a problem at all. Mohammed Mossadegh. See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_ajax](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ajax). ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/29 "2006-01-11T22:57:15Z")
> [@Renato Marmaduque](#): > > So you wouldn’t care if Grenada were today a communist dictatorship instead of a democracy? It’s not the job of the US military to bring justice around the world. It should protect the US (and its immediate allies, under the idea of mutual defense), and maybe occasionally intervene when its presence would avert an immediate crisis, (such as the genocide in Rwanda, and I agree, it’s a black mark against Clinton that he didn’t intervene there), but that’s it. No invasions to spread democracy. > [@](#): > > But the secular groups stood no chance. And the Shah, as bad as his human rights record is, was better than the Ayatollahs. Carter, of course, had no way of knowing that until it happened. That Iran would become a total theocracy, and an incredibly nasty one at that, was by no means a done deal. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/30 "2006-01-11T22:58:39Z")
Thanks, BG. One of the more shameful moments in 20th century US history, IMHO. And one that will continue to haunt us for quite some time. ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/31 "2006-01-11T23:00:08Z")
Polk’s so-called imperialism was a very good thing for the country to my mind. Criticizing it today is to impose 20th century standards on 19th century conditions. The territories obtained have been of great benefit to the U.S. and Mexico had no real legitimate claim to them. It’s not like there was a stream of Mexican refugees leaving Colorado and heading back south after the U.S. acquired it. If it was bad for Mexico, well, that’s the way the cookie crumbled. (Cuts off further remarks in order not to become embroiled in a guest worker/immigration thread). ---
**Author:** ![Renato\_Marmaduque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e480ec/32.png) [@Renato\_Marmaduque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renato_Marmaduque)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/32 "2006-01-11T23:00:10Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > It’s not the job of the US military to bring justice around the world. It should protect the US (and its immediate allies, under the idea of mutual defense), and maybe occasionally intervene when its presence would avert an immediate crisis, (such as the genocide in Rwanda, and I agree, it’s a black mark against Clinton that he didn’t intervene there), but that’s it. No invasions to spread democracy. Well, then, we’ll never agree. I do think invasions are needed to spread democracy and freedom. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/33 "2006-01-11T23:01:03Z")
> [@Renato Marmaduque](#): > > Carter also failed to help Afghanistan when the Soviet Union invaded. You seem to have forgotten that the Soviets did not **invade** Afghanistan. They were invited in by a Communist government that resulted from a purely home-grown revolution. It was a lot more like their support for Cuba than their post-WWII occupation of Europe. Or, put another way, it was a lot like American intervention in Vietnam to prop up an ideologically sympathetic regime. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History\_of\_Afghanistan#Daoud.27s\_Republic\_of\_Afghanistan\_.281973-1978.29](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan#Daoud.27s_Republic_of_Afghanistan_.281973-1978.29) At least, it started out that way. Within a few years the Soviets were acting less like defenders and more like a foreign occupying force. But, at that, there are still some Afghans (as I’ve learned in relevant threads) who remember the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan as comparing favorably with everything that came before or after, including the present situation. > [@Renato Marmaduque](#): > > Even after his presidency, Carter constantly undermined America abroad. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Renato\_Marmaduque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e480ec/32.png) [@Renato\_Marmaduque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renato_Marmaduque)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/34 "2006-01-11T23:02:15Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > Polk’s so-called imperialism was a very good thing for the country to my mind. Criticizing it today is to impose 20th century standards on 19th century conditions. The territories obtained have been of great benefit to the U.S. and Mexico had no real legitimate claim to them. It’s not like there was a stream of Mexican refugees leaving Colorado and heading back south after the U.S. acquired it. If it was bad for Mexico, well, that’s the way the cookie crumbled. (Cuts off further remarks in order not to become embroiled in a guest worker/immigration thread). Mexico had no “legitimate claim”? I was under the impression that those territories were part of Mexico. What do you mean no “legitimate claim”? ---
**Author:** ![Renato\_Marmaduque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e480ec/32.png) [@Renato\_Marmaduque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renato_Marmaduque)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/35 "2006-01-11T23:07:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, at that, there are still some Afghans (as I’ve learned in relevant threads) who remember the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan as comparing favorably with everything that came before or after, including the present situation. Well, there are still some Russians who remember Stalin fondly. Regarding Carter, if he would only stick to Habitat for Humanity. Rembember how the North Korean fooled Carter into believing they’d stop their nuclear program? And how he visited Castro, responsible for the deaths of 7,000? ---
**Author:** ![zamboniracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9a140/32.png) [@zamboniracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zamboniracer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/36 "2006-01-11T23:08:53Z")
> [@Renato Marmaduque](#): > > Mexico had no “legitimate claim”? I was under the impression that those territories were part of Mexico. What do you mean no “legitimate claim”? I mean, just because the dictator in Mexico city had a map in his office with big lines on it that included Colorado inside of Mexico, doesn’t mean that the Mexicans were actually running the place. It was wilderness populated by Indians. If you want to say the Indians had a claim to it I’d agree with you. If you’re saying it was actually part of Mexico other than in the grandiose dreams of the Mexican generals then I’d say you were mistaken. Mexico had no hope of holding onto those territories. It couldn’t hold them militarily and under the 18th century standard of the day that’s what prevailed. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/37 "2006-01-11T23:08:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So did Saddam Hussein. So what? The shah was a dictator. What good is suffrage without elections (that actually mean something)? It’s not like the Majlis didn’t have any power in the 50s and 60s. It still could pass laws, even though the Shah had stripped it of a lot of its power after Mossadegh tried to overthrow him. That changed in the 70s, of course. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/38 "2006-01-11T23:13:36Z")
No William Henry Harrison? His entire presidency was spotless! ---
**Author:** ![Renato\_Marmaduque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e480ec/32.png) [@Renato\_Marmaduque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renato_Marmaduque)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/39 "2006-01-11T23:19:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Don’t tell me you regard NAFTA as an “achievement”! It doesn’t seem to have done hte U.S. or Mexico any good, so far. (Canada, maybe.) See this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315669](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315669) I don’t know about Mexico, but [free trade is good for the US](http://www.heritage.org/Research/TradeandForeignAid/bg1761.cfm). > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So did Saddam Hussein. So what? The shah was a dictator. What good is suffrage without elections (that actually mean something)? I’ll do more research, but I’m quite sure there were parliamentary and municipial elections under the Shah. If not, I don’t see why the Shah took the trouble to give suffrage to women. The difference between Saddam and the Shah is that the Shah killed around 16,000 according to Rummel (probably less, Rummel freqeuntly inflated figures), and Saddam killed around 300,000 (according to US govn’t, human rights groups say “some quarter of a million Iraqis”). The Shah didn’t attack four of Iran’s neighboring countries and didn’t try to build a nuclear bomb. He didn’t gas his own people either. ---
**Author:** ![Renato\_Marmaduque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e480ec/32.png) [@Renato\_Marmaduque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renato_Marmaduque)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505/40 "2006-01-11T23:21:09Z")
> [@zamboniracer](#): > > I mean, just because the dictator in Mexico city had a map in his office with big lines on it that included Colorado inside of Mexico, doesn’t mean that the Mexicans were actually running the place. It was wilderness populated by Indians. If you want to say the Indians had a claim to it I’d agree with you. If you’re saying it was actually part of Mexico other than in the grandiose dreams of the Mexican generals then I’d say you were mistaken. Mexico had no hope of holding onto those territories. It couldn’t hold them militarily and under the 18th century standard of the day that’s what prevailed. Well, then for a long time the US had “no legitimate claim” over the Louisiana territory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rank-the-us-presidents/339505.md?page=3)