# Let's Read the Qur'an as Literature **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 5, 2007, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668 "2007-03-05T13:06:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/41 "2007-03-07T14:30:19Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Not carte blanche, precisely, just a presumption that an appropriate reaction to persecution is war. [/QUOTE] Why \*war \* necessarily? Why not simply resistance? As I see it, these verses are saying that you are allowed to fight back when oppressed, and should continue to fight until the opression is ended. This needn’t be an all-out war, but the verses could certainly be used to justify one if an entire nation of Muslims were being oppressed by another nation. > [@](#): > > I am assuming that “the Book” refers to the Bible, and not the Qur’an. Sometimes it is not immediately clear, just as it is not always clear that “We” means Allah, not Muhammed and/or Gabriel. > > Regards, > Shodan “The People of the Book” refers to fellow monotheists in general, and hence Jews and Christians in the more commonly understood sense. They are afforded special respect because of their belief in a single God, despite the fact that they are felt to have “deviated” on some of the details. There is some debate as to whether Zoroastrians are also “People of the Book” as they are also apparently monotheistic. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/42 "2007-03-08T03:21:50Z")
Okay, we’ve gotten the idea that the whole surah possibly wasn’t written in one sitting, so to speak, and have some of the terminology defined for our purposes here. How many major themes does this particular surah have? Is each theme conveniently in its own section or are the theme’s verses mixed in with other theme’s verses? Who are the major and the minor characters in this surah? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/43 "2007-03-08T05:37:21Z")
OK, I’m thoroughly intimidated. Y’all are all way more clued-in on the historical context. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/44 "2007-03-08T06:56:40Z")
Don’t give up! Come to think of it, if there’s an idea or a term in the surah that’s specifically explained in a later surah, shouldn’t we mention that reference? (p.s. Here’s how little night life I apparently have: not only am I doing this discussion, I’m also doing the same with the Book of Mormon.) ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/45 "2007-03-08T11:12:25Z")
I decided to read the Qur’an awhile ago but distracted early on. I’ll drag out my copy and join in soon. Interesting conversation! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/46 "2007-03-08T23:31:28Z")
I suppose I should add another question. Why is the surah entitled “The Cow” instead of describing some pivotal event in it? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/47 "2007-03-09T03:16:29Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] How many major themes does this particular surah have? [/QUOTE] 1. Well, to put it more precisely, editors have marked out 40 sections (_ruku‘_) in al-Baqarah, divided up according to thematic content. A particular theme may be repeated in more than one ruku‘, or a ruku‘ may cover more than one theme. But I would suggest the ruku‘ structure to break it into bite size morsels. The ruku‘s don’t appear in modern copies of the Qur’an from the Arab world, but in South Asia they’re still in use. The widespread work of A. Yusuf Ali (who was Indian) has popularized this thematic breakdown because he wrote little meditations to introduce each section. T.B. Irving did the same with marginal notes. I wish I had a copy of Irving’s First American Version right now, that would make this so much easier. Section 1: verses 1-7 - introduction to the Qur’an, faith and infidelity Section 2: verses 8-20 - what’s wrong with hypocrites Section 3: verses 21-29 - more about faith, about Allah, kind of hard to summarize sometimes, the way the verses just keep flowing from one idea into the next. Section 4: verses 30-39 - Creation, fall, and repentance of Adam and Eve. Unlike the Bible, it does not blame Eve for the Fall. I’m just sayin. A major part of this surah is talking about Moses and the Israelites in the wilderness after the Exodus, Sections 5-11, verses 40-96. The Qur’an’s way of narrating Bible stories is much more concise, and focuses on the moral. The morals I see here are: If you make a covenant with Allah, don’t break it. And: Don’t pester the prophet with too many nitpicky questions. > [@](#): > > Why is the surah entitled “The Cow” instead of describing some pivotal event in it? First of all, the surah names usually don’t convey much information about the content. The names aren’t part of the actual text, just some of the editorial apparatus added later. When Muhammad himself made reference to any particular surah, he would just say the first few words to identify it. So some surahs are named after their first words. It would be hard to pick out one pivotal event in this long surah, the way it just keeps flowing. Sometimes just an arbitrary word is pulled out of the middle of the surah to name it, like Smoke (#44). Sometimes the surah does have a single key concept and the name gives information about it, like Joseph (#12). Sometimes the surah name consists of meaningless letters, as noted above. The main topics in al-Baqarah revolve around Israelite history and theology, but there’s another surah (#17) called the Children of Israel. So this one was named for the cow story in verses 67-73. Probably because there’s no other surah with a cow in it. Just to have any old name to make it easier to cite. The part about the cow is actually a murder mystery. Or should I say a murder moo-story. Allah tells Moses how to crack the case by supernatural means. This is where the cow comes in. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/48 "2007-03-09T04:00:30Z")
Thanks, **Johanna**. So, in terms of chronology, which surah preceded the other, speaking just of #2 and #17? Is there available a listing of the Surahs by chronological, as opposed to traditional, order? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/49 "2007-03-09T15:08:18Z")
[QUOTE=Book Monster] Why \*war \* necessarily? Why not simply resistance? [/quote] Err, because I agree with you that > [@](#): > > I think the “limits” referred to here are the ones laid down in the Sunnah regarding the Islamic Rules of War. If it helps, perhaps we can stipulate that it refers to “jihad” in whatever senses Islam uses the word, and return to the theme later if necessary. > [@](#): > > “The People of the Book” refers to fellow monotheists in general, and hence Jews and Christians in the more commonly understood sense. They are afforded special respect because of their belief in a single God, despite the fact that they are felt to have “deviated” on some of the details. There is some debate as to whether Zoroastrians are also “People of the Book” as they are also apparently monotheistic. I thought “the Book” referred specifically to the Bible. > [@](#): > > [2.87] And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew. > [2.88] And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief; so little it is that they believe. > [2.89] And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers. I took this as a reference to the Old Testament (Musa/Moses) and the New Testament (Isa/Jesus). And the Book from Allah is the Qur’an, AFAICT. The Zoroastrian holy text is the [Avesta](http://www.religioustolerance.org/zoroastr.htm) > [@](#): > > [2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. Are these the Sabians? Did Muhammed know about the [Gnostics?](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06592a.htm) I wonder if he would have considered them monotheists, or what he would have said about the Demiurge and so forth. Of course, this might be a distinction without a difference, as there were probably relatively few monotheistic religions around AD 632 other than Christianity and Judaism. And one wonders why the problems in Iran with B’ahai. > [@](#): > > Why is the surah entitled “The Cow” instead of describing some pivotal event in it? I thought it was a reference to the golden calf. And this - > [@](#): > > [2.67] And when Musa said to his people: Surely Allah commands you that you should sacrifice a cow; they said: Do you ridicule us? He said: I seek the protection of Allah from being one of the ignorant. > [2.68] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is. Musa said: He says, Surely she is a cow neither advanced in age nor too young, of middle age between that (and this); do therefore what you are commanded. > [2.69] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what her color is. Musa said: He says, Surely she is a yellow cow; her color is intensely yellow, giving delight to the beholders. > [2.70] They said: Call on your Lord for our sake to make it plain to us what she is, for surely to us the cows are all alike, and if Allah please we shall surely be guided aright. > [2.71] Musa said: He says, Surely she is a cow not made submissive that she should plough the land, nor does she irrigate the tilth; sound, without a blemish in her. They said: Now you have brought the truth; so they sacrificed her, though they had not the mind to do (it). > [2.72] And when you killed a man, then you disagreed with respect to that, and Allah was to bring forth that which you were going to hide. > [2.73] So We said: Strike the (dead body) with part of the (Sacrificed cow), thus Allah brings the dead to life, and He shows you His signs so that you may understand. Although it is not quite the same as the ordained sacrifices of the OT, which is more lambs and goats. > [@](#): > > [2.102] And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, “Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever.” Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah’s permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this. > [2.103] And if they had believed and guarded themselves (against evil), reward from Allah would certainly have been better; had they but known (this). > [2.104] O you who believe! do not say Raina and say Unzurna and listen, and for the unbelievers there is a painful chastisement. What’s this about? I don’t recognize this story. And what is Raina and Unzurna? And this - > [@](#): > > [2.158] Surely the Safa and the Marwa are among the signs appointed by Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit (to it), there is no blame on him if he goes round them both; and whoever does good spontaneously, then surely Allah is Grateful, Knowing. Is this a reference to the Ka’aba in Mecca? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/50 "2007-03-09T17:07:24Z")
No, brother, the cow story has nothing to do with the Golden Calf. The Arabic word for calf is ‘_ijl_, that story is in surah 20, Ta Ha. The “cow” in surah 2 is a Yellow Heifer and the word for it is _baqarah_. The two stories just share the same setting. They have a lot of bovine stories. Wha’d you expect from a tribe of herders? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/51 "2007-03-09T17:15:40Z")
al-Safa and Marwah are two hillocks in the sacred precincts of Mecca overlooking the little hollow where the Ka‘bah is. al-Safa is now entirely enclosed within al-Haram Mosque which has been recently remodeled really humongous and surrounds the Ka‘bah plaza. al-Safa is like a mass of solid rock rising out of the floor nearly to the ceiling. Pilgrims climb onto it and say these verses ritually to begin the sevenfold back and forth circuit called the _sa‘y._ Marwah is a much lower elevation, all paved over, and its summit is occupied by a barbershop. A regular barbershop, barber chairs, strops, and all. The ritual of walking/running between al-Safa and Marwah commemorates the sacred history of a legendary woman named Hajar who was the first person to settle there. Women were more prominent in ancient Arabia, the Babylonians considered Arabia a matriarchy; Hajar herself was Egyptian. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/52 "2007-03-09T17:22:31Z")
[QUOTE=Johanna] The ritual of walking/running between al-Safa and Marwah commemorates the sacred history of a legendary woman named Hajar who was the first person to settle there. Women were more prominent in ancient Arabia, the Babylonians considered Arabia a matriarchy; Hajar herself was Egyptian. [/QUOTE] Her husband Abraham is usually given the credit for founding Mecca, but in fact according to the ancient legend Hajar was the first settler, not Abraham. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/53 "2007-03-09T17:42:16Z")
Hajar being the Hagar of the bible, the mother of Ishmael, btw, for those who don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/54 "2007-03-09T17:50:22Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] And one wonders why the problems in Iran with B’ahai. [/QUOTE] The problems with the Bahai aren’t related to the monotheism/polytheism thing. The Bahai are descended from a movement within Islam in which someone claimed to be a prophet sent from God with a new revelation. This was considered heresy, and the Bahai are persecuted in Iran because they are, according to Iranian Muslims, heretics and abandoners of Islam who follow a false prophet. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2007, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/55 "2007-03-10T09:55:04Z")
Interesting stuff. Now that Ishmael has been mentioned, I think it’s worth noting that in Islam, it’s considered that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the child Abraham was ordered to sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/56 "2007-03-13T15:40:03Z")
Hey **Monty** , still want to keep it going? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2007, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/57 "2007-03-13T22:55:21Z")
Yeah, really. I thought you guys would keep it going longer than\* this\*. I have tried to read the Qur’an, but it’s too much like bad poetry. And then someone has to explain to me what I just read. So I stopped. ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/58 "2007-03-15T03:30:19Z")
I just wanted to chime in about a question raised in the GD part of this thread. The arabic version of the Qur’an is considered the only valid one because in Islam, the book is said to be the miracle that establishes Mohammed as a true prophet. Jesus raised the dead, Moses parted the red sea, Mohammed has the Qur’an which would be a persistent miracle, available for all to witness. Something like that anyways. I’m not a scholar and I’ve read very little of the Qur’an myself. It’s not easy to read, I struggle with a lot of the words because they have fallen into disuse today. And the style of writing back then was fairly different as well. However, I must admit that it is beautifully written. I think it is a legitimate claim to say that translation, especially between languages with fairly different characteristics (as opposed to something like french\<-\>spanish) can easily corrupt much of the original work and is absolutely guaranteed not to capture all the subtleties, no matter how good. This is magnified a hundredfold when you’re translating poetry and not prose, as is the case here. I guess the closest comparison an english speaker could relate to would be reading Shakespeare in say…chinese or finnish…only worse somehow. Just keep this in mind while you’re reading a translation. /chime over ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/59 "2007-03-15T05:35:14Z")
Yes, I do want to keep it going. As mentioned before (can’t remember where), I’m not that concerned about “It’s impossible to translate it!” as, actually and obviously, it’s not impossible. Now, the caliber of translation can be an issue. I do want to keep the discussion of the 2nd Surah going a tad longer. We’ve already established the themes present in it. I don’t remember if we’ve established the characters yet, so let’s list a couple of obvious one: God (remember, we’re discussing this as a literary work so one’s personal beliefs of the truthfulness of the work is 100% irrelevant) Muhammed Gabriel Cow Who else? And what are all the characters’ roles in this Surah? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668/60 "2007-03-15T14:52:08Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] I do want to keep the discussion of the 2nd Surah going a tad longer. We’ve already established the themes present in it. I don’t remember if we’ve established the characters yet, so let’s list a couple of obvious one: God (remember, we’re discussing this as a literary work so one’s personal beliefs of the truthfulness of the work is 100% irrelevant) Muhammed Gabriel Cow Who else? And what are all the characters’ roles in this Surah? [/QUOTE] Overall, I think this surah centers more on the Children of Israel than any other subject. Whatever the topic covered in this surah, it’s linked in some ways to the Israelitic tradition. Even when instituting the rules for the Ramadan fast (2:183), the subject is introduced by saying “as it was prescribed on those before you,” hinting at Jewish ritual fasting. Likewise, the part about the qiblah shift from Jerusalem to Mecca in verses 2:142-145, the subtext is transferring spiritual legitimacy from Jews to Muslims, or from Israel to Arabia. The surahs like 2, 3, 5 that contain a lot of halakhic type legislation also have a lot of discussion of Biblical figures, perhaps not coincidentally. So I would cite verses 83-147 as the thematic core of the whole surah, because this part focuses on the continuity and transferral from the Children of Israel to Islam, presenting Islam as the next in a series of prophetic revelations which had been occurring in Israel prior to this. Presenting Islam as the heir of this lineage and placing both in the wider context of Abrahamic tradition. Nowadays, one of the latest additions to religious studies and interfaith discourse has been the term “Abrahamic religions.” That concept originated here in Surat al-Baqarah. Well, they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-read-the-quran-as-literature/394668.md?page=4)