# Let's rethink "cruel and unusual" punishment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561 "2011-08-30T00:28:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sudden\_Kestrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecd19e/32.png) [@Sudden\_Kestrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sudden_Kestrel)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/21 "2011-08-30T01:09:39Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Take [this](http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/headlines/20110826-boy-who-died-of-dehydration-was-punished-for-wetting-bed.ece) story involving the death of a 10-year old who was denied water for five days, left in a room without air-conditioning in the sun and had his mouth stuffed with peanut butter as punishment for wetting his bed. > > Now obviously, these parents are fucked in the head and deserve the full weight of the law reaped on them. But beyond that, here’s a question for you. Given the manner in which the 10-year old died, couldn’t it be argued that these people don’t deserve any better treatment than what they gave the 10-year old? Why would it not be permissible to let these people rot in the desert as punishment for their crimes? Why do people deserve to be treated with-- for lack of a better word-- respect regardless of the situation and circumstance? > > Edit: This doesn’t just pertain to the couple in the link. This also relates to individuals who commit rather heinous or simply outlandish crimes. Even if we disregard our own moral imperative to be humane, what criteria would we use to determine whether a particular crime is “heinous” or “outlandish” enough? There are some people who would consider homosexuality to be on that scale, or interracial sex, or neglecting or mistreating animals. Who gets to decide what kind of behavior falls under these special rules? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/22 "2011-08-30T01:10:07Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > So it’s all about giving off an air of moral superiority? I don’t find that to be a rather compelling reason. What purpose does aspiring to be better than the criminals we prosecute serve except to make some feel better about themselves? If we behave as criminals, we are criminals, and that is not the kind of society most of us want to live in. Take a look at places that do not ban this kind of thing, either now or in the past. There was a _reason_ those awesome wonderful God-like Founding Fathers you conservatives so revere put it in The Constitution. Read about what things used to be like, and what they still are like in places like China. Is that the kind of place you want to live? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/23 "2011-08-30T01:10:41Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > It hands out a punishment equal to the crime committed. What does that accomplish, except to lower you to the level of a brutal sociopath? Punishment for violent murders like this should protect society. Eye for an eye retribution accomplishes nothing that incarceration for life doesn’t, without the violence. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/24 "2011-08-30T01:10:52Z")
[QUOTE=Omg a Black Conservative] Who says it’s immoral? [/QUOTE] Society, obviously. If not then the government certainly could torture people at will, and would do all the cruel things you are advocating. > [@](#): > > If, for example, an individual willingly violates someone else’s right to live, why should their right to live be respected? Except that society CAN take someones life for certain crimes in the US. Also, they lose their right to freedom by committing such crimes. Why would torture be necessary? How would it make us a better society? > [@](#): > > Is this some kind of relativist game in which you don’t want to be perceived as doing the same or even doing worse than those you’re punishing, and as such argue that the punishment cannot equal or exceed the crime committed? Why does the punishment have to equal or exceed the crime? -XT ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/25 "2011-08-30T01:14:15Z")
[QUOTE=Omg a Black Conservative] For the purpose of this thread, we’re operating under the assumption that the guilty did, indeed, commit the crime and that they were in a sane state of mind when they did so. [/QUOTE] Oh…we have prefect knowledge of all of the circumstances and are able to (magically) judge not only the current mental state of the accused, but the state that existed during the committing of the crime, as well as all extenuating circumstances? That should make it easy to sentence then. So, I ask you, again, why do we, as a society, need to stoop to the level of the criminal who committed a given crime? Why is locking such a person away forever not punishment enough? Hell, why isn’t it MORE cruel to lock someone away for years or for life than to simply kill them? Don’t they suffer more locked up, assuming suffering is what you are after here? -XT ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/26 "2011-08-30T01:14:17Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > For the purpose of this thread, we’re operating under the assumption that the guilty did, indeed, commit the crime and that they were in a sane state of mind when they did so. Why? You are talking (presumably) about really wanting to change the law here; why should we not discuss the real world implications of that? And if this is all some sort of weird hypothetical, then lay it out better. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/27 "2011-08-30T01:16:31Z")
Suppose they call you up, like jury duty. “Good morning, citizen! I am calling on behalf of your local Penitence and Redemption Board. Thing is, the guy who does the fingernail tearing out stuff is out sick, and we were wondering if you could fill in for the day? Light schedule, one rapist, couple drug dealers, couple thought crimes. On the job training, some free videos…” ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/28 "2011-08-30T01:17:46Z")
It does not matter what the perpetrator did. We are not supposed to use cruel and unusual punishment. It is like saying “this is what I believe, when i am not pissed off”. If I am offended all my principals are gone and I want revenge. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/29 "2011-08-30T01:17:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Suppose they call you up, like jury duty. > > “Good morning, citizen! I am calling on behalf of your local Penitence and Redemption Board. Thing is, the guy who does the fingernail tearing out stuff is out sick, and we were wondering if you could fill in for the day? Light schedule, one rapist, couple drug dealers, couple thought crimes. On the job training, some free videos…” Do they have dental?? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/30 "2011-08-30T01:20:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Do they have dental?? Well, they have all the equipment… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/31 "2011-08-30T01:22:14Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > For the purpose of this thread, we’re operating under the assumption that the guilty did, indeed, commit the crime and that they were in a sane state of mind when they did so. For the purpose of this thread, you seem to looking for an excuse for society to satisfy your thirst for blood, and you seem to be openly advocating _against_ being more moral than criminals. Any government that falls down this rabbit hole should be openly opposed. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/32 "2011-08-30T01:22:44Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > It has everything to do with primitive blood lust. Your wanting to torture other people is about you feeling good, not about what is the best way to run a society. How do you know that this isn’t the best way to run a society? Let’s say that, tomorrow, it becomes perfectly legal to torture criminals. Do you think society would get better, get worse or stay the same? > [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > If we behave as criminals, we are criminals, and that is not the kind of society most of us want to live in. > > Take a look at places that do not ban this kind of thing, either now or in the past. There was a _reason_ those awesome wonderful God-like Founding Fathers you conservatives so revere put it in The Constitution. Read about what things used to be like, and what they still are like in places like China. Is that the kind of place you want to live? I’m pretty sure the reason I wouldn’t want to live in China has little to do with the way they treat their criminals. > [@xtisme](#): > > Society, obviously. If not then the government certainly could torture people at will, and would do all the cruel things you are advocating. But I’m not talking about torturing people at will. But rather, allowing people to be subjected to the same amount of pain they inflict on another. > [@](#): > > Except that society CAN take someones life for certain crimes in the US. Also, they lose their right to freedom by committing such crimes. Why would torture be necessary? How would it make us a better society? Firstly, cruel and unusual punishment need not result in death. Secondly, a loss of freedom doesn’t seem like that big of a punishment when your crime is taking away someone’s life. That seems more of like a slap on the wrist. One individual is dead and you get to live out the rest of your life given the bare minimum (and sometimes even more). Three, I’ve heard it said that a society can be judged on the way it treats its prisoners, or something to that effect. But I propose something differently. A society is judged based on the relative value it grants to those trespassed against. If I can act against you, yet my punishment will be less relative to the pain or suffering I’ve caused you, then what does that say about your value relative to mine? > [@](#): > > Why does the punishment have to equal or exceed the crime? It doesn’t have to, and I’d have no qualms if it didn’t. It’s generally the other side which seems to argue that the punishment cannot be equal to or exceed the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/33 "2011-08-30T01:26:03Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Who says it’s immoral? What’s immoral about it? If, for example, an individual willingly violates someone else’s right to live, why should their right to live be respected? Is this some kind of relativist game in which you don’t want to be perceived as doing the same or even doing worse than those you’re punishing, and as such argue that the punishment cannot equal or exceed the crime committed? > > Assuming this is what you’re arguing, why does that matter? I say it. I’m going to go out on a limb here and boldly declare that torturing people to death is immoral. This, on top of my brave stand earlier this week in which I declared I believe racism to be wrong. I know, I’m challenging conventional wisdom by taking such a strong stand. But never let it be said that Little Nemo shies away from controversy. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/34 "2011-08-30T01:26:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Oh…we have prefect knowledge of all of the circumstances and are able to (magically) judge not only the current mental state of the accused, but the state that existed during the committing of the crime, as well as all extenuating circumstances? That should make it easy to sentence then. So, I ask you, again, why do we, as a society, need to stoop to the level of the criminal who committed a given crime? Why is locking such a person away forever not punishment enough? Hell, why isn’t it MORE cruel to lock someone away for years or for life than to simply kill them? Don’t they suffer more locked up, assuming suffering is what you are after here? > > -XT Read the link in the OP. That’s what started the discussion. You’ll notice that said individuals are without a doubt guilty and they’re not insane or suffering from any kind of mental illness. As it is, I’ve answered your question about “stooping to the criminals” level three times now. And, as you say, if it’s more cruel to simply lock someone away for years than it is to kill them, then you shouldn’t have any problem pursuing the _less_ cruel way 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/35 "2011-08-30T01:27:07Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > How do you know that this isn’t the best way to run a society? Gee, let’s look at other societies that have operated the way you propose _we_ operate. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Let’s say that, tomorrow, it becomes perfectly legal to torture criminals. Do you have any concern whatsoever about the morals of the society you live in, or is it just a case of “if the law says it’s o.k., _no matter what_, then that’s all right by me.” ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/36 "2011-08-30T01:27:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I say it. I’m going to go out on a limb here and boldly declare that torturing people to death is immoral. This, on top of my brave stand earlier this week in which I declared I believe racism to be wrong. “It’s immoral because it is” really isn’t an answer. If it’s immoral-- and it sometimes is-- there has to be a reason _why_ it’s immoral. Just stating that it is isn’t much of an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/37 "2011-08-30T01:29:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Gee, let’s look at other societies that have operated the way you propose _we_ operate. This looks to argue that the societies you can look at didn’t work because of their stance on how they treat criminals. This is nonsensical because you have to look at the policies of that society as a whole, and not just one singular policy. > [@](#): > > Do you have any concern whatsoever about the morals of the society you live in, or is it just a case of “if the law says it’s o.k., _no matter what_, then that’s all right by me.” Indeed, I do. How about you read the rest of my comment and what I was responding to? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/38 "2011-08-30T01:32:21Z")
You. Not her, not him, not some theoretical person, you. What torments are you willing to personally inflict on another human in order to demonstrate your moral superiority? Be specific, tough guy. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/39 "2011-08-30T01:32:52Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > It hands out a punishment equal to the crime committed. I’d let people park for a day in my driveway if it would get me out of parking tickets. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/40 "2011-08-30T01:34:07Z")
How the hell does one respond to an adult that needs an explanation as to why torturing someone to death is wrong? This mindset is totally foreign to me-it would be like trying to explain “Twin Peaks” to a totally isolated tribe-there isn’t a common frame of reference to work with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561.md?page=3)