# Let's rethink "cruel and unusual" punishment **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 30, 2011, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561 "2011-08-30T00:28:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/101 "2011-08-30T16:56:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m curious about the possible “retribution inflation”. Picture the following campaign ad from 2024: > > “My opponent agrees that rapists should have their eyes gouged out in public and force-fed to them, but he says also feeding them their fingers and testicles is going too far. Can we really trust a leader who is soft on crime? Paid for by the Committee to Elect McGurk.” > > The OP is proposing doing away with the “cruel and unusual” barrier. I’m curious what barrier, if any, he’d like to put in its place and what will keep that barrier from being casually broken. I mean, if it’s liberal pussies who are keeping the child-killers from getting a just punishment, won’t _he_ be a liberal pussy in 2024 if he feels cutting off the hand of a shoplifter is excessive? Won’t this become a justice system where the sadistic have no checks on them at all, and any punishment for any crime can be rationalized, with politicians competing for who can be “toughest” ? Can you go one thread without throwing out the worst straw men you can think of? Supporting those things which would be deemed “cruel and unusual” for offenders who engage in “cruel and unusual” crimes does not mean that one has to support the cruelist and most unusual punishment one can think up for every criminal anymore than someone who believes in jail time served for certain offenses believes that everyone should serve multiple life sentences for every crime. /probablerunonsentence ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/102 "2011-08-30T17:02:05Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > But when it comes to retribution, I don’t see any place for that in a civilized society. What about punitive damages? Are these not a form of readily accepted retribution? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/103 "2011-08-30T17:03:50Z")
> [@](#): > > William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law! > Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? > William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that! > Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake! - A Man For All Seasons, Robert Bolt. I’ll stick with that as my answer. Next time, OMG, it might just be you. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/104 "2011-08-30T17:08:12Z")
The OP is an example of the demographic the founders were trying to protect us from. The foaming, inarticulate rage of the mob isn’t something we need to bow to. Torturing people is wrong. I cite human empathy. I think many on the right mistake savagery for strength. I contend that being humane and decent requires much more strength than acting like a Liberian warlord. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/105 "2011-08-30T17:11:19Z")
There’s no inarticulate rage here 🙂 Edit: And since when do you care what right wing loonies have to say, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/106 "2011-08-30T17:14:08Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > There’s no inarticulate rage here 🙂 > > Edit: And since when do you care what right wing loonies have to say, anyway? I care when they utilize low-information “values voters” to get their fucked up policies enacted as law. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/107 "2011-08-30T17:17:41Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > What about punitive damages? Are these not a form of readily accepted retribution? Nope. Deterence. Has anyone started a pit thread yet? I have some unexpressed rage. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/108 "2011-08-30T17:19:35Z")
It requires a diseased mind to inflict cruel and unusual pain and torture. That does not change just because the victim may deserve it in some way; the act itself is disgusting and cruel. All that has happened is that the need for revenge has warped the mind into believing cruel and unusual torture is a good thing. And what criminal doesn’t believe their victim deserved it? Sure, there are some truly psychopathic people out there who ‘experiment’ or just do it for fun, but many atrocities happen because the perpetrator thinks they’re righting some kind of wrong: his wife left him (because he was abusive), her child just wouldn’t stop crying, he was ‘betrayed’ in some way, he believed Satan lived inside a little girl, etc. etc. A reason is not sufficient to justify cruel and unusual torture. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/109 "2011-08-30T17:25:14Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Can you go one thread without throwing out the worst straw men you can think of? Oh, I can think of way worse examples than that (and in fact edited out my first choices for ones that I thought were more plausible) but my question remains - suppose someone has tortured and killed a child. I’m confident that there’s no “just” punishment you can suggest that someone else can’t top for brutality and “just-ness”, and where does it end? So you want the parents locked in a room to die of thirst and starvation? That’s Pussy Lib’rul talk! Why not break their legs and _then_ leave them to die of thirst and starvation? Or give them a fighting chance by tethering their ankles with a chain and giving them a hacksaw? There’s no check point in what you’re suggesting and if this fails to act as a deterrent and some future parent horribly kills some future child, what then? Make the punishment even _more_ brutal, since the previous lesson obviously didn’t sink in? And in all honesty, I don’t think you can justly accuse me of creating a strawman version of your proposal, at leat not until you flesh your proposal out a little more. What limits, if any, did you have in mind? If none, then _nothing I can say_ can possibly count as an exaggeration. So let’s say there will only be “cruel and unusual” punishments for “cruel and unusual” crimes. Can you list these crimes and the corresponding punishments you have in mind, as well as how you expect to prevent future judges from “embellishing” (and legislators from passing harsher sentencing guidelines) if they think your punishments aren’t punishing enough? You’re casually inviting the worst elements of human nature to take charge and then kvetching at me for pointing out that this might possibly go wrong somehow. Get over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/110 "2011-08-30T17:26:34Z")
Maybe after we legalize torturing prisoners we can do something about having it televised as well. I mean, what’s the point of being cruel and unsual to people if we can’t be entertained by it and sell a few Snicker bars in the process. I’m sure President Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho would endorse this concept. Torturing a torturer wouldn’t ‘solve’ anything, it would just give new torturer, and those calling for it as a punishment, a nice warm feeling where their hearts used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/111 "2011-08-30T17:26:35Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Nope. Deterence. Punitive damages are generally not so much about deterrence as they are added onto the judgment either as further punishment or because the original punishment was deemed to be insufficient given the crime. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/112 "2011-08-30T17:30:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Oh, I can think of way worse examples than that (and in fact edited out my first choices for ones that I thought were more plausible) but my question remains - suppose someone has tortured and killed a child. I’m confident that there’s no “just” punishment you can suggest that someone else can’t top for brutality and “just-ness”, and where does it end? So you want the parents locked in a room to die of thirst and starvation? That’s Pussy Lib’rul talk! Why not break their legs and _then_ leave them to die of thirst and starvation? Or give them a fighting chance by tethering their ankles with a chain and giving them a hacksaw? > > There’s no check point in what you’re suggesting and if this fails to act as a deterrent and some future parent horribly kills some future child, what then? Make the punishment even _more_ brutal, since the previous lesson obviously didn’t sink in? > > And in all honesty, I don’t think you can justly accuse me of creating a strawman version of your proposal, at leat not until you flesh your proposal out a little more. What limits, if any, did you have in mind? If none, then _nothing I can say_ can possibly count as an exaggeration. > > So let’s say there will only be “cruel and unusual” punishments for “cruel and unusual” crimes. Can you list these crimes and the corresponding punishments you have in mind, as well as how you expect to prevent future judges from “embellishing” (and legislators from passing harsher sentencing guidelines) if they think your punishments aren’t punishing enough? > > You’re casually inviting the worst elements of human nature to take charge and then kvetching at me for pointing out that this might possibly go wrong somehow. Get over yourself. You do this quite a lot. There’s nothing in my ‘proposal’ which requires such extreme lengths or the caricature you’re making. The reason none of this would be done, is because it doesn’t fit the nature of the crime. An eye for an eye, not an eye for an arm, a leg, your wife, your kids, your house, your grandmother, your dog and your car. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/113 "2011-08-30T17:31:48Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Punitive damages are generally not so much about deterrence as they are added onto the judgment either as further punishment or because the original punishment was deemed to be insufficient given the crime. Well, I guess you’re the expert then. I’ll ignore the 100 or so cases I have worked on where punitive damages issues were briefed at trial and on appeal, and all those jury instructions I had to draft explaining the ratioanle to the jurors. Since punitive damages are a concept in civil cases, your use of the word “crime” indicates a certain lack of expertise in this area. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/114 "2011-08-30T17:43:23Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Well, I guess you’re the expert then. I’ll ignore the 100 or so cases I have worked on where punitive damages issues were briefed at trial and on appeal, and all those jury instructions I had to draft explaining the ratioanle to the jurors. Since punitive damages are a concept in civil cases, your use of the word “crime” indicates a certain lack of expertise in this area. (1) I don’t have to be an expert. I did a simple search on the interwebz. (2) This is what I mean by people trying to play “Gotcha’!” on this website. You very well know that I used the word crime in the general sense to indicate wrongdoing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/115 "2011-08-30T17:48:28Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > You do this quite a lot. There’s nothing in my ‘proposal’ which requires such extreme lengths or the caricature you’re making. Requires? No. Will happen anyway? Most likely. > [@](#): > > The reason none of this would be done, is because it doesn’t fit the nature of the crime. I’m not talking about the nature of the crime - I’m talking about the nature of the people who will be punishing the crime. You give us no indication that you’ve considered the possibility of abuses, disporportionate punishments and competitive “tough on crime” campaigning. As a pure hypothetical, utterly and permanently divorced from reality, what you suggest makes for an amusing thought experiment. In practice, you’d end up with the Saudi Arabian “justice” system. In your view, is there _any_ punishment too extreme for a child-killer? If so, what’s your proposed replacement for “cruel and unusual” that will say “you can go this far, but no farther” ? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/116 "2011-08-30T17:59:28Z")
Some actions are so horrible that not only do that damage the victim, they damage the perpetrator and all those who hear about it as well. See the OP for a prime example. I feel dirty just hearing about this shit. Like a wolf who has acquired a taste for human flesh, a person who would do those things to another human being can never be fully trusted again, even if they are “just following orders.” ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/117 "2011-08-30T18:01:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Requires? No. Will happen anyway? Most likely. Doubtful. Do we, as a society, currently give people consecutive life sentences holding up a convenience store for $50? > [@](#): > > I’m not talking about the nature of the crime - I’m talking about the nature of the people who will be punishing the crime. You give us no indication that you’ve considered the possibility of abuses, disporportionate punishments and competitive “tough on crime” campaigning. I don’t consider it, as I usually don’t consider the hypotheticals you bring up, because it’s irrelevant to the thread. Because someone might abuse something, which can be said of anything, is no reason not to do that thing. > [@](#): > > As a pure hypothetical, utterly and permanently divorced from reality, what you suggest makes for an amusing thought experiment. In practice, you’d end up with the Saudi Arabian “justice” system. In your mind, maybe. In practice, no, we wouldn’t. > [@](#): > > In your view, is there _any_ punishment too extreme for a child-killer? If so, what’s your proposed replacement for “cruel and unusual” that will say “you can go this far, but no farther” ? Given my responses in this thread, I’ll let you take a guess. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/118 "2011-08-30T18:06:56Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Why should I answer a question to which there is no disagreement? Unless you disagree with the status of the crime in the OP, then the question serves no purpose, as you could provide an answer yourself. You’re doing nothing more than trying to deflect away from answering a question to which there is disagreement. Hey, you’re the one asking “but why is torture morally wrong, exactly ?”. Seems to me there’s some disagreement on your part, there. So I’m asking you: why is what the parents in your OP did morally wrong, in your eyes ? > [@](#): > > That would be true _if_ this was indeed what I said. But it was not. Again, you’re the one candidly asking what makes torture immoral, which implies you don’t find it automatically immoral yourself. > [@](#): > > Do you think punishment for a crime is arbitrary? Of course it is. Every law is arbitrary. When we, as a society, say “this crime is worth 5 years in jail, that crime is worth 10”, what is not arbitrary about that ? Do you think there is an objective assessment of a crime’s worth out there ? A heavenly conversion table maybe ? > [@](#): > > Do you consider the line between committing a crime and being punished for that crime to be blurred? Do you, for example, consider the difference between sticking someone in jail for twenty years just because and sticking someone in jail for twenty years because they raped and murdered someone to be arbitrary? I consider “20 years” arbitrary, yes. Why 20 ? Why not 25 ? Why not 10 ? Because we said so. > [@](#): > > The Golden Rule doesn’t much of mean anything here. There are many things which, presumably, you wouldn’t want done to you that you that are not necessarily immoral or wrong to do. For example, I don’t think you would want to be jailed for a substantial portion of your life. Yet many people here, probably including yourself, would agree with such a punishment if it were to be handed down by court/jury. Actually, I wouldn’t object to being jailed, assuming I did something to mandate a jail sentence. Now, that doesn’t mean I’d be in a hurry to turn myself in, 'cause you know, fuck _that_. But if they did catch me, I’d go to jail without a fuss. Can’t be much worse than Coventry :p. Especially considering the historical alternatives - if I steal a loaf of bread, I’d rather do 6 months than have my hand cut off, wouldn’t you ? And of course, as a citizen I want the folks who crimed at me to go away and crime at me no more. Ideally by making them into proper citizens, but in a pinch simple segregation does the trick. So jail is certainly something that, both as the criminal, and as a citizen (who wants to be safe from criminals) I can agree with. It’s not the best, it’s probably one of them necessary evils & cruel necessities, it’s certainly a compromise, but it’s a satisfactory one to me. Torture is mos’ def’ not, neither from a citizen nor a criminal’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/119 "2011-08-30T18:08:20Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Doubtful. Do we, as a society, currently give people consecutive life sentences holding up a convenience store for $50? Actually, under Three Strike laws, America indeed does sometimes hand out extended sentence for trivial crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561/120 "2011-08-30T18:10:28Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > (1) I don’t have to be an expert. I did a simple search on the interwebz. > > (2) This is what I mean by people trying to play “Gotcha’!” on this website. You very well know that I used the word crime in the general sense to indicate wrongdoing. 1. Then someone on the Internet was wrong 2. Sorry about that. But you’re still wrong [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-rethink-cruel-and-unusual-punishment/594561.md?page=7)