# Let's say I don't believe in Jesus's divinity. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019 "2006-05-16T19:35:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/21 "2006-05-17T01:16:18Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > 2 : In philosophical terms, it seems to me a “True Christian” would be someone who followed Christ and his teachings; whether or not he was semidivine and performed miracles is fairly irrelevant. After all, he was right or he was wrong; performing miracles wouldn’t make him any righter or wronger. Of course it’s relevant. If Jesus was the son of God then it makes sense that he can forgive people for their sins. On the other hand if he wasn’t the son of God then he was just some nut and who wants to follow a nut and why would his words carry any weight? Marc ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/22 "2006-05-17T10:51:34Z")
Thomas the Unbeliever had some serious faith problems and he still was a Christian… I don’t have a Bible here, but in I-think-Corinthians-II, Paul has a beautiful piece about Love being the whole point. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/23 "2006-05-17T11:37:49Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Of course it’s relevant. If Jesus was the son of God then it makes sense that he can forgive people for their sins. On the other hand if he wasn’t the son of God then he was just some nut and who wants to follow a nut and why would his words carry any weight? Marc The truth is the truth; no matter who speaks it. It is the spirit of love and forgiveness and compassion for other sinners that I honor. For sake of argument: Assume Jesus was the bastard love child of Mary. They were rescued from certain stoning by the compassion of Joseph. If anything, that carries greater hope for all of us that even a love child was offered and understood the love of god(dess). ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/24 "2006-05-17T12:24:44Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > If christian is defined as one that holds the spirit of the christ, they are christian; no matter their path. That does not mean they are not also whatever faith they profess. The path is secondary to the destination. It can only be insulting in that the pseudo-christians have given christianity a bad name. > > I would be honored to be considered a member of any faith that held the same spirit as the christ. It is not the word that defines christian, it is the spirit. > > Please tell me what you do not understand about the concept that anti-christians persecute sinners, and christians do not. Anti-christians are not christian; no matter the claim. > > ItS > r~ You’re \*exactly \* the kind of christian that gives christians a bad name. _I’m_ not _honored_ to be tacked on to your organization against my will simply because that’s how you interpret christianity. You have no more business defining what christianity is than the man in the moon. A quick look around will give you dozens of definitions that are in direct opposition to yours. Who died and made YOU god? The fact that you choose to attribute your enthusiasm to a religious movement is your business; but it doesn’t mean it’s correct or that non-followers appreciate your self-righteous efforts to include the rest of the world in your club. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/25 "2006-05-17T14:56:09Z")
> [@jeffrice](#): > > Let’s say I don’t believe [Jesus](http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/7748/106446) ever existed. Takes care of the divinity question rather neatly. Thank you very much for your insightful and thoughtful answer. :rolleyes: > [@Skammer](#): > > Well, the belief you describe is contrary to the the Apostle’s Creed or the Nicene Creed, both of which state that Jesus is “of one being with the Father… through Him all things were made.” Even Episcopalians/Anglicans agree on that (or are supposed to). So… you can call it anything you want, but it’s not really that similar to what most people consider Christian faith. You’re right, I’d completely forgotten about the creeds. I suppose that would limit me from being Episcopalian or Anglican. > [@Nava](#): > > Thomas the Unbeliever had some serious faith problems and he still was a Christian… Is that another name for Doubting Thomas? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/26 "2006-05-17T15:19:52Z")
> [@jeffrice](#): > > Let’s say I don’t believe [Jesus](http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/7748/106446) ever existed. Takes care of the divinity question rather neatly. [Don’t fuck with Cecil.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_275.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/27 "2006-05-17T15:41:47Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Thomas the Unbeliever had some serious faith problems and he still was a Christian… ur-Lord Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever and white gold wielder? ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/28 "2006-05-17T16:41:46Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > You’re \*exactly \* the kind of christian that gives christians a bad name. _I’m_ not _honored_ to be tacked on to your organization against my will simply because that’s how you interpret christianity. You have no more business defining what christianity is than the man in the moon. A quick look around will give you dozens of definitions that are in direct opposition to yours. Who died and made YOU god? > The fact that you choose to attribute your enthusiasm to a religious movement is your business; but it doesn’t mean it’s correct or that non-followers appreciate your self-righteous efforts to include the rest of the world in your club. I was not aware I had an organization. I am simply a voice in the wildernet seeking the truth; no matter the words of others. Please reread my posts more carefully and without the baggage that the pseudo-christians have forced on you. Please tell me specifically what you have against the spirit of love and forgiveness and compassion and why that spirit carries a bad name for you. ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/29 "2006-05-17T17:48:50Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I make the distinction between jesus (the flesh) and the christ (the spirit of god held by the flesh; no matter the gender). The spirit transcends the flesh and the word; is not limited to any one mortal being; is available to any that would hold it. > > Pseudo-christians idolize the word and the flesh at the expense of the spirit. That is why they persecute and kill. > > ItS > Peace > r~ OH-kay. If you’re interested, that makes you a Dynamist according to the ancient tabulation of Christian heresies. With reference to Anglicans, there are set creedal statements to which one is supposed to adhere. The Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral summarizes them quite nicely. However, where Anglicanism parts company with most of Christianity is in not demanding _one particular sense_ be placed on them. If your beliefs are such that you can meaningfully recite the Nicene and Apostles’ Creeds and mean something valid to yourself by them, that’s sufficient for your own conscience and for us. Since they are invested in language part metaphorical and part literal, it’s your choice how to understand any given phrase, so long as you intend it meaningfully to have a particular meaning which you can articulate. (How does one “sit at the right hand of” an omnipresent Being without body, parts, or passions? In a symbolic sense, of course. What does "he arose on the third day’ signify, and why that? You have a little discretion in interpreting the meaning of that clause.) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/30 "2006-05-17T17:56:18Z")
> [@rwjefferson](#): > > I was not aware I had an organization. I am simply a voice in the wildernet seeking the truth; no matter the words of others. > > Please reread my posts more carefully and without the baggage that the pseudo-christians have forced on you. Please tell me specifically what you have against the spirit of love and forgiveness and compassion and why that spirit carries a bad name for you. > > ItS > r~ By organization, I mean the group that you refer to as holding the spirit of the christ. There are many interpretations of who and what christ was. Not all of them flattering or something to aspire to. I have nothing against any of the qualities you mention. I have a huge problem with you using the whole christ thing interchangeably with those qualities. This statement in particular: > [@](#): > > There are only two choices, you will respond either as anti-christian (deny peaceful pursuit on account of sin), or as christian (help secure peace in spite of sin). It matters not what you call yourself, or whether you believe jesus is god. is narrow and insulting. No matter what we think, your way is the answer? Puh-leeeeeeze. Seeking the truth is a good thing…seeking the truth and attributing all the good in the world to christ is rather limiting and delusional. Assuming I’d be honored to be considered a christian (or somehow crestfallen to be considered an anti-christian) is rather presumptuous. ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/31 "2006-05-17T21:14:22Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > …attributing all the good in the world to christ is rather limiting and delusional. Assuming I’d be honored to be considered a christian (or somehow crestfallen to be considered an anti-christian) is rather presumptuous. You presume too much. I am not limiting all good to the word christ. I am choosing that particular word to express the spirit I honor. I recognize the difference between words and spirit. If your brother’s name was falsely attributed to evil, would you not seek to restore it? ItS r~ ---
**Author:** ![rwjefferson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@rwjefferson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rwjefferson)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/32 "2006-05-17T21:19:01Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > If you’re interested, that makes you a Dynamist according to the ancient tabulation of Christian heresies. Please tell me the name for the Anglican heretics that invoke the name christ to persecute sin. r~ ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/33 "2006-05-18T06:10:50Z")
**rwjefferson** , I don’t know if you and I bring the same meaning to the expression “the Christ,” but I can agree with what you are saying when I see it in my own terms. I am a Christian. But I find value in the teachings of many and I respect the different spiritual journeys and pathways that others follow. When I _really_ connect with someone and understand and am both open and accepting, then I can say to him, “_I behold the Christ in you._.” And he might say, “I behold the Sacred in you.” And it is the same thing – no matter what his religious faith. I really don’t go around doing this _much_. It’s more of a metaphorical thing. It is like the hymn “In Christ There Is No East or West.” I really don’t distinguish the Christ from anything that is Sacred. But I don’t know. It’s a mystery. (And I think **Kalhoun** is a mischievous angel with a crooked halo.) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2006, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/34 "2006-05-18T10:55:49Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe (And I think **Kalhoun** is a mischievous angel with a crooked halo.)[/QUOTE] Heh…well, if there _were_ such a thing as angels, and I _was_ one of them, I’d probably be wearing my halo backwards (and my wings would be made of studded leather). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/35 "2006-05-19T15:00:10Z")
Christians believe in the divinity of Christ, at least in the post-Nicean flavours. You can deny the alleged divinity of Christ and still be a Christian in the same sense that you can believe in the divinity of Christ and still be a muslim: you can’t. Unless, that is, you establish the **Church of People Who Really Admire Christ but Don’t Really Believe all of that God Nonsense**. While there is a wid variance of belief in the Christian sects, all of the legitimate sects believe in the divinity of Christ. If you allow the term Chrisitian to be warped as to allow the non-divinity of Christ, then the Muslims are Christians, and so are the Bahai’s: both religions acknowlede Christ as a Capital P Prophet, but not his divinity. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/36 "2006-05-19T15:29:01Z")
> [@cerberus](#): > > Christians believe in the divinity of Christ, at least in the post-Nicean flavours. You can deny the alleged divinity of Christ and still be a Christian in the same sense that you can believe in the divinity of Christ and still be a muslim: you can’t. > > Unless, that is, you establish the **Church of People Who Really Admire Christ but Don’t Really Believe all of that God Nonsense**. > > While there is a wid variance of belief in the Christian sects, all of the legitimate sects believe in the divinity of Christ. > > If you allow the term Chrisitian to be warped as to allow the non-divinity of Christ, then the Muslims are Christians, and so are the Bahai’s: both religions acknowlede Christ as a Capital P Prophet, but not his divinity. But what if you believe in the divinity of everything? Christ is divine, but so are you, and I, and this tree outside my window. And the window. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/37 "2006-05-19T15:36:42Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > But what if you believe in the divinity of everything? Christ is divine, but so are you, and I, and this tree outside my window. And the window. Then you’re playing silly buggers. Or, alternatively :D, you subscribe to another religion which is not Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/38 "2006-05-19T16:20:02Z")
Just a question for the sake of technical curiosity, more than anything… I was reading the thread and trying to remember why I had the impression of the attitude of Anglicans toward doctrine that I did. I can’t find any sources relevant to my original education on the subject, but I did find a [link](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060417fa_fact5) of almost astonishing relevance: > [@](#): > > For Robinson, this saying of creeds intensified a spiritual crisis that had been gathering since high school. He had accepted Jesus Christ in his early teens, submitting, as was the custom in his church, to a full submerging in the baptismal pool following a public profession of faith. By high school, though, he had begun to harbor doubts about some of the particulars of the Christian faith—doubts, he felt, that would not be a welcome subject of inquiry either in his church or in his deeply religious home. At Sewanee, he found himself regularly obliged to proclaim some of the very assertions he questioned. The Nicene Creed, that fourth-century statement of Christian orthodoxy, particularly vexed him: > > (_Insert Nicene Creed here_) > > To be expected to repeat these sentiments, Robinson decided, was an offense against conscience. He took his protest to one of the school’s chaplains, who listened to him and told him that he saw no problem at all. If joining in the Creed distressed him, why not just speak only those portions of it that didn’t offend? The chaplain’s counsel disarmed Robinson, but it also revealed to him that although the Anglican faith had cherished creeds, it had no absolute doctrine, a paradox rooted in its beginnings as the Church of England. Virgin Birth, Resurrection, Christ’s divinity as part of the Trinity, these are some of the major orthodox assertions of the Creed. If there were any three beliefs that I would have assumed were simply essential and non-negotiable for a Christian, by definition, it would have been them. The article appears to demonstrate, however, through Robinson’s experience (I don’t know what portion of the Creed “vexed” Robinson), that a more heterodox interpretation of the Creed is still compatible with membership, and may very well include some or all of the Big Three I mentioned. Is this correct or not? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/39 "2006-05-19T16:32:21Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > …Or, alternatively :D, you subscribe to another religion which is not Christianity. Oh, absolutely I subscribe to a different religion entirely. I just like to poke people with a proverbial stick and force them to concede that there’s more than 3 religions in the world. And I can easily believe in the divinity of Christ without being a “Christian”. _poke poke_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019/40 "2006-05-19T16:42:33Z")
I’ve stayed out of the discussion because most of my stuff is in storage, so I don’t have access to citations. Still, this notion that Christianity requires Christ to be divine has been repeated so many times by so many people that I’m going to wade in without them. But, first, a disclaimer. I’m not a Christian (though I used to be) (now an atheist, or strong agnostic depending on how one defines terms). To me this isn’t a matter of defending the faith. Rather, it is one of accurate history. Understand, then, that “is” below means “is believed” or similar such phrase. Part of the problem may be the meaning of the word “divine.” Clearly, in one sense, Christ is divine merely as the Son of God. But that isn’t the same as saying that Christ is God (or, if one prefers, a God or a part of God). IMHO, early proto-orthodox Christians did not consider Christ to be God, a God or part of God. He was _sui generis_, but more akin to angels or prophets. Note that Christ always attributes his miracles to the Father. More importantly, salvation comes not from Christ but from the Father, at the right hand of whom the Son will sit. It’s important to understand that this isn’t just nitpicking. The Gospels go out of their way to stress Christ’s humanity, not his divinity. Hence the temptation, Gethsemane, the scouging, etc., not to mention little flourishes like the nativities of Matthew and Luke. The reason they do so is that they were written in the context of a major doctrinal dispute with the Gnostics, who argued that, Christ being divine, didn’t actually die on the cross (you can’t kill a god) but only seemed to die. To the proto-orthodox, this was a dangerous heresy because, to them, for Christ’s resurrection to hold out real promise for mortals, it had to be parallel. A real man’s death and a real man’s resurrection. So, how did mainstream Christianity come to believe that Christ is divine? This happened later, after the Gospels and Paul’s letters had been written. As the movement matured and expanded, two important issues arose. (We’re talking second and third centuries here.) One was, what was this sacrifice all about, anyway? What did it do and why was it necessary? The other was how to reconcile the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with monotheism, which pretty much everyone agreed was the only acceptable model. The answer to the first became vicarious atonement, which requires Christ to have infinite goodness. The answer to the latter became the Trinity, which has defied sensible comprehension ever since. But, is it fair to say one can only be a Christian if one accepts these later concepts? In all sincerity, I don’t see it. Seems to me that accepting the Gospels as written should be good enough. And there have been several splinter sects over the centuries who did just that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-i-dont-believe-in-jesuss-divinity/357019.md?page=3)