# Let's say that one ethnic group is proven stupider than the rest. What are our obligations? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 31, 2010, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075 "2010-01-31T01:39:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/21 "2010-01-31T13:25:29Z")
There is a very big and unpleasant question that remains, after we accept that there may be different averages, and overlap, and brilliant and idiotic members of each ethnicity, and we are making our choices on the basis of the individual. Does a smaller fraction of executives or professors or political leaders or whatever, of an ethnicity, than their fraction of the entire population, prove discrimination? I think that if averages were identical, an underrepresentative fraction proves some discrimination somewhere; and if the averages aren’t proven identical, an underrepresentative fraction does not prove discrimination (though it may be a useful observation to include in a body of evidence that builds an understanding of possible discrimination). ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/22 "2010-01-31T14:44:30Z")
I doubt anyone on this board is blunter than I in expressing the opinion that we are our genes, and that most of the differences we find are driven more by genetic differences than any other driver. It’s not clear to me that this changes our fundamental obligation: we should take care of one another. Feed the hungry; clothe the cold; minister to the sick. We are all the family of man and we are all responsible to steward the earth. Group differences, whether genetic or circumstantial, are irrelevant from the standpoint of my personal responsibility. What difference does it make? Surely the strong and privileged, whether by accident of birth or luck of life circumstance should seek to extend a hand to the less fortunate. If differences exist at a group level, it seems to me the only fair approach is to make accommodation for those groups wherever possible while at the same time pursuing a long-term goal of getting rid of the divisiveness which results from grouping based on appearance. Obviously this often results in diametrically opposed short-term strategy: If we set aside a race-based quota, we risk increasing the division between “races.” On the other hand, if there are real innate differences between (even self-described) racial/ethnic groups, no amount of opportunity normalization will equalize outcome, so we’ll never get to a world where all groups feel an equal participation if we don’t set aside group-based quotas. It’s my personal position that the existence of innate group-based differences is precisely the reason why we need group-based quotas for now, until such time as we no longer care what group you belong to…but those sorts of decisions happen at the societal/governmental level. But at a personal level? I don’t give a rat’s patoot what your group is. Every man’s death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind. The bell tolls for me when it tolls for anyone. I’m just finishing up paper work to join a group that sends medical teams to places like Haiti. I don’t think I get to weasel out of an obligation to give back just because it might not be my “group” I’m helping out. Two parables come to mind. The first is from Jesus: In reply to “Who is my neighbor?” he told the story of the Good Samaritan in which the only one with the heart to help a broken man was an individual from the Outsider Group. The second is from Aesop: The mighty lion feels magnanimous and lets the mouse free; in the end it is the mouse who saves the lion. We do well to remember that we are all neighbors and that none of knows who of us will remain mighty. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/23 "2010-01-31T19:25:00Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > […] On the other hand, if there are real innate differences between (even self-described) racial/ethnic groups, no amount of opportunity normalization will equalize outcome, so we’ll never get to a world where all groups feel an equal participation if we don’t set aside group-based quotas. […] I like everything else you said and admire you for it. However, I think there’s an error of fact in this one detail. Quotas are one way to create numerically equal participation in spite of (hypothetical) innate differences. But there are others. For example, if you try to illuminate and disperse inner city areas of blight by favoring them with extra public transportation, or community colleges with liberal scholarship assistance, or targeting them with extra career guidance and advertising, you will preferentially help people in a population that preferentially represents disadvantaged demographic groups, without quotas. In fact this even has an element of fairness to it that overlooks ethnicity completely, because it attempts to break up cycles of failure from generation to generation without regard to whether specific ethnicities have been put at numerical advantage. Moreover, people may “feel an equal participation” if they have reason to believe they have full and equal opportunity to apply their abilities, to the best of those abilities. They won’t necessarily feel that, but they might, and anyway they ought to have that opportunity whether the feeling is what we hope for or not. There may be a need for quotas, but quotas are not the only way of accomplishing what they are usually advertised as accomplishing. ---
**Author:** ![pope\_hentai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@pope\_hentai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pope_hentai)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/24 "2010-01-31T19:32:38Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > You should have preferences for people of the stupider group in certain jobs and schools in which they are underrepresented. > > That would be kind of a token apology for society favoring the “smarter” group as well as provide positive role models so the “stupider” group could do better. that doesn’t make any sense at all… i suppose there is going to be a quota system as well, and a preference for applications to government jobs? I just want to affirmatively understand these actions of yours… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/25 "2010-01-31T19:47:29Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > Nothing changes. > > We still make decisions and policy for individuals not groups. > > If you need a tall person for a job, you don’t advertise for scandinavians you measure them. > > If you need a fast person to represent your country in the olympics, you don’t look for someone with Kenyan ancestry. You see how fast they can run. > > If you need a smart person, you don’t exclude people with the “wrong” ethnic background. You make sure they are smart. > > An average for a group tells you very little about the ability of an individual and it is perverse to exclude a group when it is easy to test for the ability you require. Me five. Well said. (I thought I posted my agreement with this a day or two ago. 😕) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/26 "2010-01-31T20:36:29Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > (I thought I posted my agreement with this a day or two ago. 😕) In a thread that is fewer than 18 hours old? Get back and recalibrate your time machine. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/27 "2010-01-31T21:09:56Z")
I read The Bell Curve a few years ago and I found big chunks of it quite compelling. You could rip out the whole section on ethnic differences - the weakest part of the book - and have a very strong case for changes in social policy based on the book’s conclusions. It would still be controversial but the ethnic differences bit was pretty much putting a big target on the book saying “please ignore me, I am discredited”. It wasn’t good science and - more important - it wasn’t useful. There is a great discussion to be had about the correlation between IQ and social economic status (SES) but it’s almost impossible to have that discussion because of the racist overtones. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/28 "2010-01-31T21:39:18Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > You’d still treat people the same as individuals, but one implication for policy would be that we would no longer automatically assume assume that a test or process that produces unequal outcomes across races, is racist. > > Thus the New Haven firefighter case, and [disparate-impact](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_impact) laws like the EEOC f[our-fifths rule](http://www.uniformguidelines.com/uniformguidelines.html#18), would be considered idiotic, as in fact they are. So the result is not more prejudice - any employer who overlooks smart members of the Dumbo clan or shoos in idiots from the Smarties tribe would be uncompetitive and go out of business. Rather, we’d have _fewer_ inefficient constraints than we have today. This reads very much like what you’re saying is that you assume the premise given in the OP is in fact true, and so your response is that we’d finally be able to look at things the way they are; no? Otherwise what does our current equal protection scheme have to do with anything? Disparate impact is based on the fact that this kind of disparity has _not_ been proven. As far as inefficient constraints, I’d say that some things are more important than idealistic economic expectations, and that your assumption about uncompetitiveness relies on a further assumption that the entire industry (or whatever) isn’t sharing in the prejudice, which flies in the face of the precedent behind those kinds of laws in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/29 "2010-02-01T02:03:46Z")
> [@](#): > > 'd say that some things are more important than idealistic economic expectations, and that your assumption about uncompetitiveness relies on a further assumption that the entire industry (or whatever) isn’t sharing in the prejudice, which flies in the face of the precedent behind those kinds of laws in the first place. Tests do a pretty good job of predicting outcomes regardless of cultural background (see APA Taskforce Report ‘Intelligence: Knowns & Unknowns’). Overlooking their results or lowering the standards does have an adverse impact. > [@](#): > > The Justice Department’s expectation, like employment discrimination law and regulation in general, is rooted in a false assumption: but for discrimination, all race and gender groups would score equally well on job-related, unbiased employment tests… > > Research in the last two decades helps to explain why. The research has provided a fairly clear picture of what kinds of worker traits and aptitudes predict different aspects of job performance and how those traits differ across demographic subgroups (e.g., see the review by Russell, Reynolds, & Campbell, 1994). It has thus been able to explain why some selection devices have more validity or disparate impact than others, and begun to chart how much of both different selection batteries produce. > > The major legal dilemma in selection is that the best overall predictors of job performance, namely, cognitive tests, have the most disparate impact on racial-ethnic minorities. Their considerable disparate impact is not due to any imperfections in the tests. Rather, it is due to the tests’ measuring essential skills and abilities that happen not to be distributed equally among groups (Schmidt, 1988). Those differences currently are large enough to cause a major problem. U.S. Department of Education literacy surveys show, for example, that black college graduates, on the average, exhibit the cognitive skill levels of white high school graduates without any college (Kirsch, Jungeblut, & Kolstad, 1993, p. 127). > > This dilemma means that the disparate impact of cognitive tests can be reduced only by reducing their ability to predict job performance. In fact, this problem is so well known among personnel selection professionals that there is considerable research estimating how much productivity is lost by reducing the impact of cognitive tests by different degrees (e.g., Hartigan & Wigdor, 1989; Hunter, Schmidt, & Rauschenberger, 1984; Wigdor & Hartigan, 1988; see also Brody, this issue, for a more general discussion of the same dilemma). There are two general methods of reducing the impact of cognitive tests: lower the hiring standards only for the lower-scoring groups, or lower standards for all races and ethnicities. Double standards lower productivity less than low common standards because they maintain standards for the majority of workers. Their drawbacks are that they are obviously race-conscious and that they create disparate impact in future promotions. In contrast, low common standards have the virtue of being race-neutral, but they devastate workforce performance across the board. [http://www.ipacweb.org/files/nassau/gottfredson3.html](http://www.ipacweb.org/files/nassau/gottfredson3.html) ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/30 "2010-02-01T02:11:01Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > _Looks at OP_ > _wonders where the stupid gene is in these substandard ethnicities_ [Here](http://www.halfsigma.com/2007/11/dtnbp1-gene-and.html), and we’re just scratching the surface. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/31 "2010-02-01T02:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > It wasn’t good science and - more important - it wasn’t useful. Why wasn’t it useful? As noted above, policies that proceed on the expectation of group equality are not grounded in reality. The results from the book on ethnic differences haven’t gone away and sooner or later science will uncover the reasons for this. [http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story\_id=14742737](http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14742737) ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/32 "2010-02-01T03:35:52Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Why wasn’t it useful? As noted above, policies that proceed on the expectation of group equality are not grounded in reality. The results from the book on ethnic differences haven’t gone away and sooner or later science will uncover the reasons for this. > > [http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story\_id=14742737](http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14742737) It’s not useful to guess at the ability of an individual based on their membership of a group when it is easier to just measure the ability. There is simply no need to have an expectation of group equality - or of group inequality. Hire individuals based on their abilities. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/33 "2010-02-01T04:43:43Z")
> [@](#): > > There is simply no need to have an expectation of group equality - or of group inequality. Hire individuals based on their abilities. And that was one of the points the Bell Curve made wasn’t it? That rather than implementing policies to create group equality (ie. treating individuals as members of groups) people should be dealt with as individuals. One of the justifications for those policies though, is that group inequality is the result of unfairness. So it is justified to discriminate against individuals from an advantaged group to address the overall imbalance. However, if group inequality can’t simply be blamed on unfairness then that justification loses much of its weight. Here are some policy that is based on the idea that there should be group equality. ‘‘Too White’ Berkeley Science Labs May Be Cut’ [http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35380](http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=35380) ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/34 "2010-02-01T05:10:19Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > It’s not useful to guess at the ability of an individual based on their membership of a group when it is easier to just measure the ability. > > There is simply no need to have an expectation of group equality - or of group inequality. Hire individuals based on their abilities. But of course you will come right along behind me to say that whatever test I am using does not measure abilities because it does not produce the distribution of ehtnicities that you expect from [ta-da] prior expectation of group equality. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/35 "2010-02-01T13:59:13Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > But of course you will come right along behind me to say that whatever test I am using does not measure abilities because it does not produce the distribution of ehtnicities that you expect from [ta-da] prior expectation of group equality. I am not sure how you made that determination from what I wrote. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/36 "2010-02-01T14:24:25Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > I am not sure how you made that determination from what I wrote. I didn’t mean you personally. But racial egalitarianism is a religion. I worship in its church myself (I literally wept with joy at Mandela’s inauguration) but if we can prove that black people are indeed on average cleverer than white people, good luck getting that reflected in public policy. ---
**Author:** ![kevlaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kevlaw/32/2281_2.png) [@kevlaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevlaw)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/37 "2010-02-01T14:41:31Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > But racial egalitarianism is a religion. It will take a strong leader - probably a black one - to make the case that equality of opportunity is a more realistic goal than equality of outcome. It would also be fairer - and more effective - to focus affirmative action efforts on equal opportunities for poor kids rather than kids from an ethnic minority. It’s undeniable that minorities - blacks especially - suffer serious discrimination but I think that everyone would be better served by dropping quotas and focusing instead on making sure that academic success depends on your ability rather than your parent’s bank balance or the colour of your skin. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/38 "2010-02-01T14:44:47Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > It’s not useful to guess at the ability of an individual based on their membership of a group when it is easier to just measure the ability. I totally get the spirit of what you’re saying but I have to disagree based on real-life practicalities. Guessing at an individual’s ability based on membership is “useful” in the sense that it saves time. There’s another a dirty word that describes a similar process: _stereotyping_. We all do it because it saves our poor brains from having to measure and evaluate _everybody_. > [@](#): > > There is simply no need to have an expectation of group equality - or of group inequality. Hire individuals based on their abilities. We use group membership as a proxy to play the odds of saving time & effort – at the possible expense of not finding the absolute best individual. It is certainly possible that an individual that graduated from a community college with a C average in accounting could be smarter and ultimately more successful running the company than any of the MBA graduates from Harvard. But we play the odds by using Harvard as prescreen filter to save is time. We knowingly overlook some diamonds in the rough. It’s a tradeoff. There are 6 billion people. We inevitably have to resort to thinking of everyone in terms of groups instead of individuals. We have a job position to fill and 500 resumes. There’s not enough time in the world to force our brains to consider 500 individuals as 500 separate measurements. We mentally filter out the 500 into various groups. Saves time. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/39 "2010-02-01T20:35:05Z")
If I’m not in the stupid group, then I hope nothing changes. More stupid people, and measurably stupid people, makes me looks better in comparison. I would not do anything to rid society of these genes but would do as much as I can to spread it. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075/40 "2010-02-01T21:02:33Z")
I’ve never in my life seen any evidence that any one ethnic group is “stupider” than any other. I will say that I suspect that the definitions of “proven” and “stupider” will always be formulated in such a way as to favor the ethnic group of which the person doing the proving is a member. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-one-ethnic-group-is-proven-stupider-than-the-rest-what-are-our-obligations/527075.md?page=3)