# Let's say that the UK simply let Argentina have the Falklands that it seized in 1982 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 3, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843 "2015-08-03T02:30:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/41 "2015-08-04T14:07:01Z")
It is true that Reagan supported the Argentine generals politically during their Dirty War against leftists. This may have encouraged them to think the US would not support the UK if they attacked the Falklands. They were wrong. Confronting the Soviets during the Cold War was a much bigger concern than a little local difficulty in the South Atlantic over a few small islands. The UK and US saw the world in much the same way during that period and the relationship was very strong throughout the Reagan-Thatcher years. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/42 "2015-08-04T15:33:58Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I recall that the US made satellite intelligence available to Great Britain. And sold Sidewinder missiles to Britain while refusing them to Argentina, which had a substantial impact on the air war. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/43 "2015-08-04T16:26:07Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What point? Yes I believe that statement. The USA and Europe have different interests on many subjects, and Europe should invest in its own defence and seek closer integration, including military, and including with Russia. ‘Europe’ isnt a political entity and most of it would not consider closer military ties with a currently aggressive state like Russia a good thing. I do think it should invest more in its defense however. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/44 "2015-08-04T18:12:25Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Thatcher made a comparison with Alaska being seized by the Russians. Although I think letting the Japanese size Hawaii would be a better comparison. In any case, the USA showed extreme reluctance to even side with Britain, let alone offer any material assistance. That should have been the end of Special Relationship. When the chips are down Europe cannot depend on the USA. Hawaii is a US state with a substantial population density and home to one of the main US Naval bases in the Pacific; perhaps you’ve heard of it, it’s called Pearl Harbor. It’s also home to a major US Army base at Schofield Barracks which has housed the 25th Infantry division since before WWII. The Falklands are a couple of rocks and are mostly the home to sheep with the total human population of the islands coming to a whopping 2,932. Thatcher making a comparison to Alaska and the Russians was deliberate hyperbole to make a political point on her part; calling a comparison with Hawaii and Japan more accurate on your part is knocking hyperbole into deep space orbit. As others have already noted, you are entirely wrong in claiming the US showed extreme reluctance to even side with Britain, let alone provide any material assistance. What you seem to be mis-recalling is [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War#Position_of_third_party_countries): > [@](#): > > The United States was concerned by the prospect of Argentina turning to the Soviet Union for support,[29] and initially tried to mediate an end to the conflict. However, when Argentina refused the US peace overtures, US Secretary of State Alexander Haig announced that the United States would prohibit arms sales to Argentina and provide material support for British operations. Both Houses of the US Congress passed resolutions supporting the US action siding with the United Kingdom.[30] > > The US provided the United Kingdom with military equipment ranging from submarine detectors to the latest missiles.[31][32][33][34] President Ronald Reagan approved the Royal Navy’s request to borrow the Sea Harrier-capable amphibious assault ship USS Iwo Jima (LPH-2) if the British lost an aircraft carrier. The United States Navy developed a plan to help the British man the ship with American military contractors, likely retired sailors with knowledge of the Iwo Jima '​s systems.[35] ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/45 "2015-08-04T18:13:00Z")
> [@filmstar-en](#): > > It is true that Reagan supported the Argentine generals politically during their Dirty War against leftists. This may have encouraged them to think the US would not support the UK if they attacked the Falklands. There were members of the Reagan administration [that supported the Argentines over the UK](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303816504577313852502105454) with regard to the Falklands, in particular Secretary of State Alexander Haig and UN Ambassador Jeanne Kirkpatrick. But other members prevailed, and ultimately the administration tilted toward the UK, especially once Argentina invaded. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/46 "2015-08-04T18:40:49Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Hawaii is a US state with a substantial population density and home to one of the main US Naval bases in the Pacific; I think he was referring to the attack on Pearl Harbor before it was a state. One Congresswoman did in fact vote against going to war over the attack. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/47 "2015-08-04T18:57:44Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > There were members of the Reagan administration [that supported the Argentines over the UK](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303816504577313852502105454) with regard to the Falklands, in particular Secretary of State Alexander Haig and UN Ambassador Jeanne Kirkpatrick. But other members prevailed, and ultimately the administration tilted toward the UK, especially once Argentina invaded. Caspar Weinberger, not un-coincidentally, was given an honorary knighthood just a few years later. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/48 "2015-08-04T19:17:48Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > When is preparing to [loan a ship](http://news.usni.org/2012/06/27/reagan-readied-us-warship-82-falklands-war-0) not useful? Personally I’m preparing to colonize Mars. Preparing to loan a ship would be helpful the moment the ship was loaned. Meanwhile Alexander Haig, US foreign minister, worked on a “compromise” which would have transferred sovereignty of the islands to the Argentines, and Jeanne Kirkpatrick, US ambassador to the UN, directly sided with the Argentine junta (for which the British called her “more foolish than fascist” - which would have been a close call since she had a wet spot for right wing tyrannies), calling the British insistence on sovereignty colonial anachronism. Reagan himself favored a neutral position, which only later in the conflict was nudged a bit towards the Brits, although actual support remained on the whole symbolic. Thatcher herself noted to Reagan that Britain had been forced to “act alone, with no outside help.” Probably she was not moved to say this by feeling overwhelmed by US support. > [@Dissonance](#): > > Hawaii is a US state with a substantial population density and home to one of the main US Naval bases in the Pacific; perhaps you’ve heard of it, it’s called Pearl Harbor. The population of Hawaii in 1943 was around 0.3% of the total US population, the Hawaii economy is about 0.4% of the USA economy, and the size about 0.2% of US total size. I think you’ll manage without. I proposed Hawaii over Alaska because it’s a much smaller territory and they are islands far away from the mainland. But whatever. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/49 "2015-08-04T19:23:00Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > What point? Yes I believe that statement. The USA and Europe have different interests on many subjects, and Europe should invest in its own defence and seek closer integration, including military, and including with Russia. Good luck with that. 😛 I’m sure when the real chips are down that Europe will be able to rely on itself and it’s Russian allies MUCH better than it has for the past 60 years on the US because we didn’t send in troops and planes to help the UK fight for the Falklands… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/50 "2015-08-04T19:54:18Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > for which the British called her “more foolish than fascist” - I do love the way British speak. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/51 "2015-08-04T20:03:31Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > The population of Hawaii in 1943 was around 0.3% of the total US population, the Hawaii economy is about 0.4% of the USA economy, and the size about 0.2% of US total size. I think you’ll manage without. I proposed Hawaii over Alaska because it’s a much smaller territory and they are islands far away from the mainland. But whatever. What on earth does the year 1943 have to do with anything? Thatcher’s point in her analogy was that Britain considered the Falklands to be theirs, nothing more and nothing less. Your proposal that Hawaii being seized by Japan works better because it’s a much smaller territory and islands far away from the mainland and that the US would manage without it beggars the imagination. Hawaii has twice the population of Alaska. Hawaii has a population of over 1.4 million, a population density of 188.6 persons per square mile and has enormous strategic value. The Falkland Islands have a population of 2,932, a population density of 0.65/sq mi and has not had any strategic value since ships stopped being coal-fired. Its population is about 0.00004% of the total population of the UK. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I think he was referring to the attack on Pearl Harbor before it was a state. Exactly, and the comparison is entirely absurd. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > One Congresswoman did in fact vote against going to war over the attack. She was an honest to god, dyed in the wool pacifist who had also voted against going to war in WWI. As you can imagine, voting no on the declaration of war against Japan cost her her political career. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/52 "2015-08-04T20:25:43Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > What on earth does the year 1943 have to do with anything? Thatcher’s point in her analogy was that Britain considered the Falklands to be theirs, nothing more and nothing less. Your proposal that Hawaii being seized by Japan works better because it’s a much smaller territory and islands far away from the mainland and that the US would manage without it beggars the imagination. Hawaii has twice the population of Alaska. Hawaii has a population of over 1.4 million, a population density of 188.6 persons per square mile and has enormous strategic value. The Falkland Islands have a population of 2,932, a population density of 0.65/sq mi and has not had any strategic value since ships stopped being coal-fired. Its population is about 0.00004% of the total population of the UK. Jesus. If you think Alaska is more comparable to The Falkland islands than the Hawaii islands are then go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/53 "2015-08-04T23:39:16Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > What on earth does the year 1943 have to do with anything? Thatcher’s point in her analogy was that Britain considered the Falklands to be theirs, nothing more and nothing less. Your proposal that Hawaii being seized by Japan works better because it’s a much smaller territory and islands far away from the mainland and that the US would manage without it beggars the imagination. Hawaii has twice the population of Alaska. Hawaii has a population of over 1.4 million, a population density of 188.6 persons per square mile and has enormous strategic value. The Falkland Islands have a population of 2,932, a population density of 0.65/sq mi and has not had any strategic value since ships stopped being coal-fired. Its population is about 0.00004% of the total population of the UK. I don’t think the comparison had anything to do with the land area, population density or strategic value. Nor did the Falklands response. If Japan had invaded a territory of less population density and strategic value, do you think the US would have shrugged and accepted that Japan could carve off a piece of America? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/54 "2015-08-04T23:49:00Z")
Japan didnt invade Hawaii; it attacked abd tried to destroy the Pacific fleet. The Japanese did invade and briefly occupy part of Alaska. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/55 "2015-08-05T00:14:28Z")
Invading Hawaii if successful, would certainly have made things more difficult fir the United States in the Pacific theater. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/56 "2015-08-05T00:22:37Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Invading Hawaii if successful, would certainly have made things more difficult fir the United States in the Pacific theater. If only because a successful invasion of Hawaii would mean Japan had far greater capabilities than she had in our timeline. It took the Japanese two goes to successfully capture [Wake Island](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wake_Island), there’s no way they could have landed sufficient forces to take any of the islands of Hawaii. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/57 "2015-08-05T01:59:11Z")
Could they have not done it with a massive, surprise assault? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/58 "2015-08-05T02:09:50Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Could they have not done it with a massive, surprise assault? They were in the process of invading China and lots of SE Asia…they just didnt have the forces. And how would they have supplied them? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/59 "2015-08-05T03:43:42Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Could they have not done it with a massive, surprise assault? “Massive” and “surprise” are mutually exclusive when you’re trying to do it across a distance of 4,000 miles. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843/60 "2015-08-05T04:25:02Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > “Massive” and “surprise” are mutually exclusive when you’re trying to do it across a distance of 4,000 miles. Although the force that attacked PH was fairly massive and they acheived a solute.suprise. it was an amazing feat. I agree that an invasion would not have succeeded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-say-that-the-uk-simply-let-argentina-have-the-falklands-that-it-seized-in-1982/726843.md?page=4)