# Let's segregate the races - new liberal solution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798 "2015-05-25T15:21:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/81 "2015-05-26T21:16:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This, too, is a good point. **Robert** , I’ve got a time machine here. The good news is I’m going to let you choose the time in American history that you visit–anything from 1600 to 1960. There’s more good news: you can bid either to go back as a black man or an Irish man. Black people [can’t fuck with time machines](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyQTAIiCa4Y), man ! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/82 "2015-05-26T21:16:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah torts… Can you sue someone because his great-grandfather has broken your great-grandfather’s leg? This misses the point of course, since I was responding to the objection that its impossible to draw lines between different levels of injustice. But it’s amusing to me that even in this non-sequitur you betray an ignorance about the history of American racism, suggesting that it ended generations ago. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/83 "2015-05-26T21:21:41Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This misses the point of course, since I was responding to the objection that its impossible to draw lines between different levels of injustice. But it’s amusing to me that even in this non-sequitur you betray an ignorance about the history of American racism, suggesting that it ended generations ago. As I pointed out, it is perpetuated by people like you. And as long as people like you have any influence on policy, it will never end. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/84 "2015-05-26T21:34:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > As I pointed out, it is perpetuated by people like you. And as long as people like you have any influence on policy, it will never end. I’m shocked that you’ve offered yet another non-sequitur! Who could have predicted? So now I’m responsible for red-lining am I? Must have sleep-promulgated some regulations. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/85 "2015-05-26T21:37:37Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m shocked that you’ve offered yet another non-sequitur! Who could have predicted? > > So now I’m responsible for red-lining am I? Must have sleep-promulgated some regulations. You advocate and promote racial discrimination. Surprise! If you do that, racial discrimination will never end. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/86 "2015-05-26T21:39:43Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Ah torts… Can you sue someone because his great-grandfather has broken your great-grandfather’s leg? No, but if Nazis stole your father’s art, [you can sue to get it back](http://www.startribune.com/ny-court-revives-suit-over-nazi-stolen-art-at-oklahoma-univ/296324471/). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/87 "2015-05-26T21:46:40Z")
Threads where reparations are discussed are always amusing, in a sad sort of way. In 1870, reparations couldn’t be paid because it would require expropriation of private property. In 1894, they couldn’t be paid because it wasn’t the federal government’s responsibility. In 1960, reparations couldn’t be paid because we didn’t know enough about the impact of slavery. In 1989, we couldn’t study the impact of slavery because it might lead to reparations. In 2015, we can’t pay reparations because everyone who was directly affected is dead. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/88 "2015-05-26T21:47:33Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Yeah, look, this is essentially the same riposte as the Jewish guy earlier, and it suggests you don’t really know anything about black history in America. > > We’re talking about generations of enslavement with all the torture and forced illiteracy that went with it, followed immediately by state-sanctioned terrorism–hanging your father outside your house because he tried to get what was due your family at harvest time for sharecoppers, followed by intentional segregation of African-Americans into ghettos, followed by a multi-decade project of race-based imprisonment. No wrong done to a single generation of people will ever compare to multi-generational chattel slavery in terms of the effect it has on subsequent generations, much less multi-generational chattel slavery followed by a hundred more years of abuse. Even if you think state-sanctioned racism ended in the 1960’s, that applies to many of the people alive today, unlike whatever gripes you have about King George III. > > Comparing yourself to an African-American family in 2015 because your ancestors went through the potato famine is like me comparing myself to a Holocaust survivor because I burned my hand once. It’s completely asinine. Yo. You might want to look into a few things (like the origin of the term ‘ghetto’) before you start going on about who needs what kind of history lesson. Jews in America have had it relatively well, especially compared to black people historically. That doesn’t mean we weren’t oppressed. And while on one hand, I don’t like to play oppression Olympics, I also don’t generally get people telling me “What do you know, Jewish guy? It’s not like there were ever systemic efforts to intimidate, rob, and despoil your people in history ever! And it’s certainly not like they happened over a long period of time!” American slavery and its legacy, especially in the rural South, was very much its own thing. But after that? Being a despised minority who lived in bad parts of the inner city? That’s been done a lot. Being hated and intimidated by the KKK? The Catholics also would like a word or two. And no industrialized nations have tried to exterminate the African-Americans in the past century to my knowledge. And if you can’t compare harms, as you say, then you can’t actually say “Black people’s suffering is uniquely bad and deserves a unique level of reparations.” So either we can order suffering, and we can say that Jews should get some multiple or fraction of affirmative action reparations for the historical actions of plunder against them, or we can say that we can’t order suffering, and that we can’t offer any reparations because we can’t say that anyone’s suffering is worse than anyone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/89 "2015-05-26T22:02:40Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > No, but if Nazis stole your father’s art, [you can sue to get it back](http://www.startribune.com/ny-court-revives-suit-over-nazi-stolen-art-at-oklahoma-univ/296324471/). [![](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/007/445/pancake_bunny.jpg) ](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/007/445/pancake_bunny.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/90 "2015-05-26T22:11:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Technically, it’s never good to treat black students differently. I might be persuaded to treat students differently if they’ve been subject in their culture to widespread racism, however. The fact that that coincides with folks who are viewed as black is purely coincidental. I don’t disagree with anything you wrote. I think, then, we can say that the school administration, whether liberal or not, is acting in a misguided manner. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/91 "2015-05-26T22:21:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/007/445/pancake\_bunny.jpg](http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/007/445/pancake_bunny.jpg) You inability to draw connections between one case in which obnoxious government actions deprived one’s ancestors of wealth and another case in which obnoxious government actions deprived one’s ancestors of wealth is noted, as is your level of discourse. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/92 "2015-05-26T22:43:02Z")
What if it worked? What if we had evidence that these approaches helped black and white students to be more accepting of each other? Reduced black students sense of victimhood, helped them attain a more positive sense of “belonging” to the general American culture? On the other hand, suppose it does not? Do we never try anything else, because this did not work? Or are we obligated to make the effort? Doesn’t the very fact of effort make a statement of support, of recognizing that a problem exists, that we empathize with the victims of racism and are willing to make such changes as may be needed? That we are willing to do what is needed even if it costs us something in time, money, comfort or effort? In a sense, I am suggesting the mirror image of the **Terr** Doctrine, which is that any recognition of race is a form of racism, and perpetuates racism. In essence this is a semantic game, a game of definitions and excruciatingly precise distinctions, and founded on nothing more than a dogmatic insistence that It Is So. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/93 "2015-05-26T22:54:23Z")
If you want to end racial discrimination maybe you should not racially discriminate. Simple concept. Apparently beyond the “enlightened” understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/94 "2015-05-26T22:57:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If you want to end racial discrimination maybe you should not racially discriminate. > > Simple concept. Simple in the same way that telling a doctor, if you want your patient to be healthy maybe you shouldn’t wound him. Sometimes the real world is more complicated than your simple concepts admit. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/95 "2015-05-26T22:59:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Simple in the same way that telling a doctor, if you want your patient to be healthy maybe you shouldn’t wound him. > > Sometimes the real world is more complicated than your simple concepts admit. I know. The “f\*cking for virginity” argument. Very complex. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/96 "2015-05-26T23:05:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Threads where reparations are discussed are always amusing, in a sad sort of way. > > In 1870, reparations couldn’t be paid because it would require expropriation of private property. In 1894, they couldn’t be paid because it wasn’t the federal government’s responsibility. In 1960, reparations couldn’t be paid because we didn’t know enough about the impact of slavery. In 1989, we couldn’t study the impact of slavery because it might lead to reparations. In 2015, we can’t pay reparations because everyone who was directly affected is dead. Except that they’re not all dead. There are still hundreds of thousands of people alive who were actively discriminated against by redlining and similar policies, as well as the current victims of the War on Drugs and other abuses endemic in law enforcement. Discrimination against black people wasn’t just in the distant past, it wasn’t just against dead people, and it still exists to a significant extent. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/97 "2015-05-26T23:11:51Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I know. The “f\*cking for virginity” argument. Very complex. That’s not actually what the argument is. Try the “surgery for cancer” argument. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/98 "2015-05-26T23:12:58Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s not actually what the argument is. Try the “surgery for cancer” argument. More like “cancer for cancer”. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/99 "2015-05-26T23:15:41Z")
Your argument is nothing more than a semantic paradox, like the irresistible force and the immovable object. You define both the disease and any effort to cure the disease as the disease. And your only evidence that it is true is the way you define your terms. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2015, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798/100 "2015-05-26T23:53:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > More like “cancer for cancer”. Edit: y’know what, let’s go with this. The patient has cancer. I’ve got a way of modifying cancer cells to inject into the patient that will fight the bad cancer cells and reduce the tumor, improving the patient’s health. You reject the very idea, based on nothing more than a chant of “CANCER IS BAD YOU MUST LOVE CANCER YOU CANCERLOVER.” In that sense, and only that sense, yeah, it’s like “cancer for cancer.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-segregate-the-races-new-liberal-solution/720798.md?page=6)