# Let's stop the terrorism double standard **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886 "2015-11-28T23:42:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/81 "2015-11-29T23:04:42Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The more I see about the Planned Parenthood shooter the more he looks like a nutjob who went over the edge rather than a terrorist. What’s the difference? See the point? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/82 "2015-11-29T23:07:57Z")
> [@UberArchetype](#): > > The guy’s “cause” or reason to inflict terror doesn’t seem very well staffed, organized, trained, equipped, or tied to any recognized downtrodden violent group to me. So yeah, clear as mud. Where in the definition of terrorism does it say one must be well-staffed, organized, equipped or tied to a group? There are plenty of lone wolf terrorists out there who act alone. The Boston Marathon bombers come to mind, or the shoe bomber guy, or UNABOM. I’m really surprised that people seem eager to make excuses and distinctions even when confronted with the hypocrisy. What is so awful about calling the Planned Parenthood shooter a terrorist? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/83 "2015-11-29T23:09:21Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > In my experience having grown up with Die Hard movies, there are a few necessary components of terrorism: > > 1. Commit a highly visible act of violence > 2. Publicly take credit for that act > 3. Threaten future acts of violence if certain _political_ demands are not met > > I know some people are very concerned over whether or not the Ft. Hood shooting is officially labelled a terrorist attack, but I’ve always had a hard time with these sorts of “lone wolf” attacks. It seems hard to make a credible threat of future violence without some kind of organization, even if we think we know the motivation of the individuals. When you cited “Die Hard,” I knew you were joking about making a credible definition of terrorism. You were joking, right? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/84 "2015-11-29T23:10:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well it’s not that important to me if people want to call him a terrorist, it just seems to me this guy was just as likely to shoot up some office or school as Planned Parenthood. He advised a neighbor to put in a metal roof to stop government spying. He hid food in the woods.The FBI isn’t likely to find out how he was “radicalized”. Nobody who knew said he had any strong political or religious views (other than hating government spying on him). So I just don’t think it’s a useful term to describe him. He committed an act of violence for political reasons. Terrorist. It’s very useful to call him that because it puts our anti-terrorism policies in proper perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/85 "2015-11-29T23:12:22Z")
> [@j666](#): > > No, I didn’t. > > Please don’t put words in my mouth. > > You claimed there is no evidence Dear was a Christian; there is. > If you meant there is no evidence he is a radical Christian, you misspoke. “Much less” does not indicated the primary statement. Ok, since you’re going to repeat your claim that there’s evidence that Dear is a radical please produce evidence that he’s a Christian or is the “no more baby parts” the best that you’ve got? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/86 "2015-11-29T23:15:46Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > He committed an act of violence for political reasons. Terrorist. It’s very useful to call him that because it puts our anti-terrorism policies in proper perspective. He is a terrorist, but from a policy perspective there’s a difference between lone wolf terrorism and organizational terrorism. The lone wolf can only be dealt with by the criminal justice system and good policing. Organizations require a military, economic, and political response. That’s the distinction, not whether or not he was a terrorist. McVeigh was also a terrorist, but once he and his partner were apprehended, that particular terror threat was brought to an end. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/87 "2015-11-29T23:18:31Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > He is a terrorist, but from a policy perspective there’s a difference between lone wolf terrorism and organizational terrorism. The lone wolf can only be dealt with by the criminal justice system and good policing. Organizations require a military, economic, and political response. That’s the distinction, not whether or not he was a terrorist. And it’s fair to make that distinction – once you call him a terrorist. Desperately avoiding the label helps nothing. > [@](#): > > McVeigh was also a terrorist, but once he and his partner were apprehended, that particular terror threat was brought to an end. Only from those particular people. Not in general. There may be man policies we may need to look at to prevent future ones. And thanks for noting McVeigh; almost forgot about him. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/88 "2015-11-29T23:21:42Z")
I’m not sure what policies you can implement. Stopping mass shooters is like stopping rapists. If the Kochs had some kind of network recruiting crazy people to go out and kill then we’d have something we could deal with. Well I take that back, one thing that can be done is to harm the cause of the terrorist so that future would be terrorists realize that their actions can set their cause back. The Republicans should stop efforts to defund Planned Parenthood, not because the Republicans are now champions of reproductive choice, but because that’s how you deal with terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/89 "2015-11-29T23:26:16Z")
Wouldn’t the next terrorist just say _“I think Planned Parenthood should be, uh, funded,”_ thus prompting legislators to defund it? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/90 "2015-11-29T23:29:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, since you’re going to repeat your claim that there’s evidence that Dear is a radical please produce evidence that he’s a Christian or is the “no more baby parts” the best that you’ve got? Picture of his [cabin in N.C.](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/29/457756325/what-we-know-about-the-alleged-planned-parenthood-shooter) Note the cross on the wall. [Interview with his ex-wife.](http://www.bradenton.com/news/local/crime/article46992955.html) > [@](#): > > The younger Dear was raised in the Baptist church, Ross said. He was religious but not a regular churchgoer and not one to harp on his faith. > > “He believed wholeheartedly in the Bible. That’s what he always said, he read it cover to cover to cover,” she said. But he wasn’t fixated on it, she added. > > He was generally conservative but not obsessed with politics. He kept guns around the house for protection and hunting, and he taught their son to hunt doves, as many Southern fathers do. He believed that abortion was wrong, but it was not something he spoke about compulsively. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/91 "2015-11-29T23:35:50Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > He committed an act of violence for political reasons. Terrorist. Really, we know this? What if he’s just psychotic and he thinks God told him to extract vengeance on the baby killers? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/92 "2015-11-29T23:45:16Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I’m not sure what policies you can implement. And this is where the thread is NOT hijacked by a gun control discussion. Except I have to note this hilarious incident: [NRA-Backed Legislator: We Can’t Take Syrian Refugees Because It’s Too Easy For Them To Buy Guns](http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/11/17/3722968/nra-texas-rep-no-syrians-gun-access/) ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/93 "2015-11-29T23:46:20Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Really, we know this? What if he’s just psychotic and he thinks God told him to extract vengeance on the baby killers? So he’s a psychotic terrorist. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/94 "2015-11-30T00:13:06Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Picture of his [cabin in N.C.](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/11/29/457756325/what-we-know-about-the-alleged-planned-parenthood-shooter) Note the cross on the wall. > > [Interview with his ex-wife.](http://www.bradenton.com/news/local/crime/article46992955.html) Sincerely, thank you for providing the evidence. I’ve also come across as far more hostile than I should and for that you have my sincere apologies. Obviously, whether or not his religious beliefs were what motivated this, we’ll probably not know for sure, just as obviously not every Muslim who engages in terrorism does so due to their religious beliefs(I.E. members of the PKK and Black September) but this shows he was at least nominally Christian. I suspect over the next few weeks and months we’ll hear lots of conflicting accounts of why he did it and he will give many different ones. I think, and admittedly this is somewhat speculative, that yes one could classify him as a “right-wing terrorist” at the very least, just as one could call Nidal Hassan “a Jihadi”. However, I would still maintain that both Hassan and Dear have for more in common with the depressingly common parade of mass shooters we see to get in America, whether it’s the guy from Oregon, Virginia Tech, etc. than they do with the ISIS guys who shot up Paris, the Baader Meinhoffs, the IRA, the PKK, or a hundred others. Real terrorists after all generally work in groups, tend to be somewhat well-trained, show extreme patience and discipline, taking months and in some cases years to finally strike and do so in vastly more deadly ways. So yes, Lance is certainly correct that the term “terrorist” fits, but can’t we all readily admit that Dear, Hassan, and Haq have far more in common with Elliot Rodger than with Muhammad Atta? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/95 "2015-11-30T00:50:33Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I think, and admittedly this is somewhat speculative, that yes one could classify him as a “right-wing terrorist” at the very least, just as one could call Nidal Hassan “a Jihadi”. > > However, I would still maintain that both Hassan and Dear have for more in common with the depressingly common parade of mass shooters we see to get in America, whether it’s the guy from Oregon, Virginia Tech, etc. than they do with the ISIS guys who shot up Paris, the Baader Meinhoffs, the IRA, the PKK, or a hundred others. > > […] > > So yes, Lance is certainly correct that the term “terrorist” fits, but can’t we all readily admit that Dear, Hassan, and Haq have far more in common with Elliot Rodger than with Muhammad Atta? Well, yes – that’s the thing, there’s different subsets of terrorist just as there are different subsets of murderer. Phil Spector is not Jeffrey Dahmer but he still belongs in prison. IIRC in the aftermath of Nidal Hassan’s crime, there was a lot of public pressure to officially declare him a Jihadi Terrorist, and to declare his actions terrorism and not workplace violence, partly out of the “othering” urge and the recurring general nonsense about _why-won’t-POTUS-say-the-words-“Islamic Terrorism”_ , but also partly as a way to enable his victims to be reclassifed as casualties-in-action, as opposed to mere crime victims. This however seems to also translate into civil society so that somehow being victims of terror is attributed a higher horror (and a higher honor) than being victims of vulgar crime. Gee, I’m just as dead, y’know. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/96 "2015-11-30T01:25:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, since you’re going to repeat your claim that there’s evidence that Dear is a radical please produce evidence that he’s a Christian or is the “no more baby parts” the best that you’ve got? Cut that out. I did not claim Dear was a radical Christian, or that there is evidence he is, no matter how many times you claim I did. I was willing to believe you really thought I did, but I don’t now, since you are ignoring my earlier post, as well as the New York Times. Do you really think 9th grade Debate Club tactics are going to work? So just cut that out. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Except so far\* there is no evidence he was terribly Christian much less a “radical Christian”. > [@j666](#): > > Yes, there is. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Since you claimed there is evidence that Dear was “a radical Christian” … > [@j666](#): > > No, I didn’t. > > Please don’t put words in my mouth. > > You claimed there is no evidence Dear was a Christian; there is. > If you meant there is no evidence he is a radical Christian, you misspoke. “Much less” does not indicated the primary statement. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Ok, since you’re going to repeat your claim that there’s evidence that Dear is a radical … Ok, cut it out. I did not make that claim, no matter how often and erroneously you claim I did. Engage honestly or not at all. Oh, [and here;](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/us/ex-wife-recalls-colorado-gunman-as-imperfect-but-a-good-man.html?_r=0) his ex-wife, who certainly doesn’t seem out to trash him, recalls Dear was raised a Baptist, and believed wholeheartedly in the Bible, although he wasn’t “fixated” on it. So, a woman who knew him for 16 years and was speaking generally favorably about him - despite a history that might have provided her reason not to - stated that he was religious. Irrefutable evidence? Maybe not. Evidence? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/97 "2015-11-30T01:31:53Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > The Islamic apologists cross into an intellectual vacuum when they try to use abortion clinic bombing to try to establish parity between Islamic terrorist murder and other terrorist murder. Since the 9/11 attacks, [right wing extremists have killed more than twice as many people in the U.S. than Muslim extremists](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0). ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/98 "2015-11-30T01:43:55Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Since the 9/11 attacks, [right wing extremists have killed more than twice as many people in the U.S. than Muslim extremists](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0). Not these morons again. One, they have omitted the deadliest attack since 9/11: the Beltway Snipers, who killed 17 people as part of a plan to fund training Islamic terrorists. Two, there are literally ten times more Republicans than Muslims in the country. That they are responsible for an equal number of deaths despite one outnumbering the other 10:1 should tell you who the real problem is. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/99 "2015-11-30T01:50:16Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Not these morons again. One, they have omitted the deadliest attack since 9/11: the Beltway Snipers, who killed 17 people\*\* as part of a plan to fund training Islamic terrorists.\*\* Two, there are literally ten times more Republicans than Muslims in the country. That they are responsible for an equal number of deaths despite one outnumbering the other 10:1 should tell you who the real problem is. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886/100 "2015-11-30T01:52:33Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Really, we know this? What if he’s just psychotic and he thinks God told him to extract vengeance on the baby killers? That would be schizophrenia, and I believe onset is much earlier; Dear maintained a relatively normal relationship for 16 years, so he must have been at least 32 at the end, too late, I think, for onset. No cites, sorry, if you’re really interested I can look … > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > … > Real terrorists after all generally work in groups, tend to be somewhat well-trained, show extreme patience and discipline, taking months and in some cases years to finally strike and do so in vastly more deadly ways. > … According to whom? Please provide an authoritative source for your definition of “real” terrorist, as that would directly disprove the OP premise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-stop-the-terrorism-double-standard/738886.md?page=6)