# Let's take Christ out of Christmas **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 25, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362 "2010-12-25T15:43:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2010, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/21 "2010-12-25T21:52:04Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > That’s an interesting article, but I’m not aware that anyone associates Christmas with New England – most of our Christmas cliches are visibly rooted in Victorian England. Of course, but the conflict was more or less the same in England–New England was, well, just that: mostly transplanted English culture. In fact, the privatization–or retreat–of the nuclear, middle class Victorian family (escaping from the common revelers in the streets) became a primary motivation for characterizing the day as something quiet, and reverential. The single most influential cultural banner for this transformation in the latter half of 19th century (Victorian) England, however was probably Dickens’ hugely popular _A Christmas Carol_, which I think doesn’t mention Christ at all, and presents a very non-Scriptural (almost alternative) path to salvation. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/22 "2010-12-26T00:44:30Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Why don’t we just celebrate the winter solstice by exchanging gifts, putting up lights, dressing as Santa, putting up stockings, having office parties, sing non-religious seasonal songs, etc.? This could be a really wonderful seasonal celebration, without anything overtly religious. > > Of course, religious Christians are free to do whatever they please, without forcing it onto the rest of us. Just curious what judeo-christian religous practice that was forced upon you during this winter solstice that scarred you so bad that prompted you to create a thread about it ? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/23 "2010-12-26T00:49:05Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Why don’t we just celebrate the winter solstice by exchanging gifts, putting up lights, dressing as Santa, putting up stockings, having office parties, sing non-religious seasonal songs, etc.? This is what the grand majority of people already do. ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/24 "2010-12-26T00:50:19Z")
Happy mas! ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/25 "2010-12-26T02:52:01Z")
I’m another one of those people who celebrate Christmas without being religious. It’s a nice excuse to spoil the kids a little and catch up with family. If it wasn’t for atheists bitching about the Christ in Christmas I doubt I’d notice it. I live in Australia, though, where people unabashedly say “Merry Christmas” regardless of worshipping Jesus, voodoo man, or nobody. I don’t know this for a fact, but I think that the Christ in Christmas thing is recent. I certainly don’t remember it being a big deal when I was growing up in Michigan. Most Christian references at Christmas time were carols and nativity scenes, which were always cheek to jowl with Santa and snowmen anyway. I got a book of Norman Rockwell’s Christmas paintings this year. While I’m pretty sure Rockwell was an observant Christian references to Christ are awfully scarce other than the name of the holiday. Scarce as in non-existent. There is a reference to God, though. It’s a _Saturday Evening Post_ cover from 1934 with Bob Crachitt and Tiny Tim with the quote “God Bless us every one.” The only other religious reference I noticed was a 1970 _Look_ magazine illustration with tourists taking pictures of some sort of procession in Jerusalem. Mainly it’s Santas, cute kids, and jolly Georgians. (The era, not the state or country. At least I think they’re Georgians. I don’t think Victorians wore hose. [Like](http://www.sothebys.com/app/ecatalogue/ecat.do?dispatch=displayImageViewer&lot_id=159567271&SIZE=smaller) [these.](http://www.best-norman-rockwell-art.com/1938-man-with-christmas-goose.html)) I think Rockwell is indicative of how early and mid 20th century middle America treated religion with regard to holidays. It was gauche to be aggressively religious, or at least not good for magazine circulation rates. It may be unusual to look at that period as genteel, but in this respect I believe it was. Kitschy as anything, though. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/26 "2010-12-26T03:09:44Z")
Almost all my friends are atheists (so are their parents) and they go absolutely batty for Christmas. I’m the odd-man-out Christian of the group and I’m the one who doesn’t exchange gifts or do too much in the way of decorating. I don’t give two hoots how they celebrate Christmas, with or without Jesus. I am so happy that they are happy that it works just fine for me. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/27 "2010-12-26T04:36:50Z")
This year the most observant Jews were the least observant of the Chinese food “tradition”- Xmas falling on Shabbat this year. Though this was an early Shabbat, I suppose there’s still time. 😉 I have to say, I have no problem with the Yay Baby Jesus Christmas. If you’re a Christian and you think Jesus is the awesomest dude ever, go for it. What I CANNOT stand is the Month-Long Jingles All The Effing Way Christmas. There’s a saturation point after which the bells and snowflakes and red-white-green color scheme become unbearable, and by a point, I mean “after the third day or so”. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/28 "2010-12-26T05:22:41Z")
> [@Ibanez](#): > > Just curious what judeo-christian religous practice that was forced upon you during this winter solstice that scarred you so bad that prompted you to create a thread about it ? “Forcing” and “scarring” are beside the point. The problem for me is that so many Christians claim the holiday as if it were exclusively theirs . . . and so many of them are totally ignorant of the fact that others celebrate it as well. Of course historically it really is theirs, but I feel society has evolved to the point where the rest of us can claim it as well. Most of us have grown up with Christmas being pretty much a secular holiday, so why not officially make it so? I think the parallel would be Halloween. The religious meaning of it is lost, it’s just a time for having fun. If anyone celebrates it in a religious context, they’re free to do so . . . but the rest of us are too busy having fun to notice them. ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/29 "2010-12-26T05:34:20Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I think the parallel would be Halloween. The religious meaning of it is lost, it’s just a time for having fun. If anyone celebrates it in a religious context, they’re free to do so . . . but the rest of us are too busy having fun to notice them. If you’re too busy having fun to notice the religious folks having their religious Halloween why are you unable to do the same for Christmas? Is it the roaming Christians who jump out from behind Christmas trees to smack you with Jesus shaped yule logs? Perhaps all of the Catholics who are demanding that Santa be removed from all public places? Maybe it’s the Pentecostals who are having BBQ Rudolph Fundraisers to rid the children of the horrible influence of these religious talisman. In other words, what are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/30 "2010-12-26T06:27:37Z")
I thought the problem with religion and Halloween in America was Jehovah’s Witnesses and other assorted holy joes being a buzzkill about it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/31 "2010-12-26T06:36:01Z")
> [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](#): > > If you’re too busy having fun to notice the religious folks having their religious Halloween why are you unable to do the same for Christmas? > > Is it the roaming Christians who jump out from behind Christmas trees to smack you with Jesus shaped yule logs? Perhaps all of the Catholics who are demanding that Santa be removed from all public places? Maybe it’s the Pentecostals who are having BBQ Rudolph Fundraisers to rid the children of the horrible influence of these religious talisman. > > In other words, what are you talking about? You haven’t noticed the religious “War on Christmas” types coming out every year to claim that the Evil Atheists or whatever are trying to destroy Christmas? The ones who do things like claim that “Happy Holidays” is some kind of anti-Christian persecution? ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/32 "2010-12-26T07:19:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > You haven’t noticed the religious “War on Christmas” types coming out every year to claim that the Evil Atheists or whatever are trying to destroy Christmas? The ones who do things like claim that “Happy Holidays” is some kind of anti-Christian persecution? Not in real life, no. I haven’t noticed it being mentioned on TV, even. I have heard “the reason for the season” used in a non-ironic way in past years. I don’t deny that the “war on Xmas” idea does get used by some fundamentalists, of course, I just don’t know how common it really is. Could you point me to, say, a thread started by a religious person on this message board who bemoans the spiritual destruction of Christmas? All I can remember is a lot of anti references which is why I’m not bothering to try to search the SDMB for the phrase. I was also under the impression that the WoC slogan was of recent coinage, so I wouldn’t’ve expected anybody to see it “every year”. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/33 "2010-12-26T07:34:58Z")
I haven’t heard it either. I hear more atheists and left-wing types talking _about_ the perception _on the right_ that there is a “war on Christmas” than I hear either right-wingers talking about a war on Christmas or left-wingers actually waging a war on Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/34 "2010-12-26T08:09:53Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Could you point me to, say, a thread started by a religious person on this message board who bemoans the spiritual destruction of Christmas? All I can remember is a lot of anti references which is why I’m not bothering to try to search the SDMB for the phrase. Say what? It’s fairly unlikely that such a person would post much if at all on this particular board. But this board isn’t anywhere near typically American for religiosity. And if you can’t be bothered to search then I’m certainly not going to. Especially since it’s besides the point. > [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > I was also under the impression that the WoC slogan was of recent coinage, so I wouldn’t’ve expected anybody to see it “every year”. It’s several years old at least. > [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > I hear more atheists and left-wing types talking _about_ the perception _on the right_ that there is a “war on Christmas” than I hear either right-wingers talking about a war on Christmas or left-wingers actually waging a war on Christmas. Why would left wingers wage a war on Christmas? The vast majority of them in this country ARE Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/35 "2010-12-26T09:01:25Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > “Forcing” and “scarring” are beside the point. The problem for me is that so many Christians claim the holiday as if it were exclusively theirs . . . and so many of them are totally ignorant of the fact that others celebrate it as well. Of course historically it really is theirs, but I feel society has evolved to the point where the rest of us can claim it as well. Most of us have grown up with Christmas being pretty much a secular holiday, so why not officially make it so? > > I think the parallel would be Halloween. The religious meaning of it is lost, it’s just a time for having fun. If anyone celebrates it in a religious context, they’re free to do so . . . but the rest of us are too busy having fun to notice them. I don’t believe Halloween has ever been officially declared a secular holiday. But having said that, you objected in your own OP to having Christmas “forced” upon you, so how is that beside the point? I think you should answer the question of just how it is that Christians are forcing their religion upon you? And to take the incongruencies of your stance a step further, you claim that religious Christians “are free to do whatever they please” yet you don’t want them to be able to lay to claim their own most important holiday. If they aren’t free to call their most important religious holiday a religious holiday, they are hardly free to do what they please. People in the Soviet Union had to hide their religion from the government. I don’t think that’s what we’re supposed to be about here in the U.S. And speaking of that, free expression of religious beliefs is protected by the Constitution: _“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”_ How are Christians supposed to be able to freely exercise their religion if they can only make mention of their most important holiday behind closed doors and out of public view? And then with regard to the war on Christmas, if there is one I’d say the anti-Christmas side is losing. I only read about one instance this year where an effort was being made to keep mention of it from public view, and that was when some bank somewhere made its employees take down their tree. And I was proudly and cheerily wished “Merry Christmas” by more store employees and shoppers this year than I can recall at any time in the last decade. It looks to me like efforts to suppress mention of Christmas (“Holiday trees” and so forth) are having an undesired effect. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/36 "2010-12-26T09:08:18Z")
There is no “anti-Christmas side.” That is a Fox News myth. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/37 "2010-12-26T09:43:37Z")
Except the OP of this thread and anyone who agrees. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/38 "2010-12-26T10:30:16Z")
Plus the Grinch, Ebeneezer Scrooge, and that crazy guy down by Woolworth’s. Two of them had a change of heart but crazy guy is still handing out leaflets the last time I saw him. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/39 "2010-12-26T10:33:09Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > “Forcing” and “scarring” are beside the point. The problem for me is that so many Christians claim the holiday as if it were exclusively theirs . . . and so many of them are totally ignorant of the fact that others celebrate it as well. Of course historically it really is theirs, but I feel society has evolved to the point where the rest of us can claim it as well. Most of us have grown up with Christmas being pretty much a secular holiday, so why not officially make it so? I believe most of them do realize that the rest of us do claim it as theirs as well and the true meaning is lost upon the rest of us heathens but I don’t give a shit because you have to admit it’s one kick ass holiday. You get to hook up with grandma, the grand kids, uncles, aunts, cousins, eat, drink and be merry and exchane gifts. I’m one atheist when anyone wishes me Happy Holidays I respond with a resounding Merry Christmas all the time every time. For me it has nothing to do with religion but a claim to recognize the fact that the kick ass country I live in was founded on judeo-christian beliefs that built some of the best institutions that we enjoy today that has actually allowed me to freely become an atheist. What you want to call evolving I call degrading. Just saying. What’s next want to take Allah out of Ramadam ? ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2010, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362/40 "2010-12-26T10:49:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Say what? It’s fairly unlikely that such a person would post much if at all on this particular board. But this board isn’t anywhere near typically American for religiosity. I see. The people who believe there’s a war on Christmas are uncommon. No wonder I only hear the term from people who believe there isn’t one. Or, in this case, people who think there should be one. > [@](#): > > And if you can’t be bothered to search then I’m certainly not going to. Especially since it’s besides the point. Well, if you’re going to be that way, let’s say I did search and there aren’t any. But there are bazillions of “I’m sick of people saying there’s a war on Christmas” references. I honestly only hear it from one side-- which is, from what you said before, well to the left of middle America. > [@](#): > > It’s several years old at least. That’s true. Apparently it started being used by guys like Bill O’Reilly in the early 2000s. That also helps explain things because I don’t pay guys like O’Reilly much attention. YMMV. > [@](#): > > Why would left wingers wage a war on Christmas? The vast majority of them in this country ARE Christian. Panache45, Scrooge, and the Grinch aside, the idea is obviously mostly hyperbole. However, there were instances of retailers dropping the word Christmas from advertising copy. I don’t see the problem myself, but some of it was silly, like calling Christmas trees “family trees”. I’m not usually conspiracy minded but the whole thing could’ve been dreamed up my some marketing guy to get people to watch Fox News and for people like Starving Artist to feel extra good about Christmas shopping. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-take-christ-out-of-christmas/565362.md?page=3)