# Let's talk about capitalism again. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2005, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690 "2005-08-12T05:10:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/121 "2005-08-18T15:35:37Z")
I was rather surprised this morning when I was reading an [interview with Camille Paglia](http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/birnbaum_v/camille_paglia.php) to find this: > [@Camille Paglia](#): > > In my view, comparing the evidence of the 20th century, that socialism in a nation ultimately does lead to economic stagnation and eventually of the creative impulse, in terms of new technology and other things. And that capitalism, despite all its failures, despite the fact that it’s Darwinian, has indeed produced a high standard of living. And, here’s the big one for me, as a feminist: It is capitalism that has enabled the emergence of the modern independent woman, for the first time free from fathers and brothers and husbands—a woman who can be self-sustaining. Now, I do believe—I am a Democrat, I am not a Republican, I do believe that because capitalism is Darwinian that it requires a strong safety net, that the government needs to provide certain things…the people who are voting Republican believe that capitalism, despite the misery of individual places, they still believe that capitalism provides the best chance for small entrepreneurs to have an idea, put it into motion and eventually make a killing. Even if you are not rich you see other people getting rich and you want a system that can produce rich people. > > …I think the problems right now with globalization and the job drain, there are all kinds of systemic problems…What’s nauseating is the way our executive class has been looting the companies. So I blame—I don’t blame capitalism, I blame the passivity of the boards [of directors] that have permitted this incredible millions and millions of remuneration and golden parachutes of people at the top and there is such a gap from people actually doing the work. > > I don’t believe it’s systemic in so far as having to abolish the system. What we need is reform. We need reform of the process, not overturning of the process… It’s a pretty long interview; the quoted material above comes way down at the bottom and much of the material above it concerns her recently released book on poetry. While Paglia is certainly not an economist, I just thought it fit nicely into the discussion thus far. Particularly the idea that capitalism is Darwinian – the upside to the “non-rich” being a fostering of creativity and freedom, the downside being the lack of systemic controls (for what I’d call “ethical concerns”). ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/122 "2005-08-18T15:36:29Z")
> [@Spatial Rift 47](#): > > Regarding the organization question, in two parts. > > Part I: Addressing the needs of society,…some kind of governmental regulatory commission. > > Part II: Organization within group efforts… In other words, Communism. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/123 "2005-08-18T16:23:53Z")
> [@Spatial Rift 47](#): > > Regarding the organization question, in two parts. > > Part I: Addressing the needs of society, as posed by **msmith537**. > The only thing I can think of offhand is some kind of governmental regulatory commission. Short of drafting people into certain careers (which I think we can all agree is extremely icky and un-freedom-like), the government would issue public service announcements. Also, it might be that the system would regulate itself. In other words, if word gets around that the suburbs of Detroit need more housing, more people go build houses there, attracted by the idea of completing large projects in a newly-opened area. Assuming there’s some guy who likes making public services announcements. No, the system will not regulate itself. It provides no feedback mechanism for communicating needs and wants with suppliers. That is what money and prices are for. Prices are the mechanism with which a modern economy transmits supply and demand information. It provides a feedback mechanism because higher prices encourages production of those goods. Basically the way I see it, the two major issues with capitalism people have are coruption and distribution of wealth. Well, I think that these problems can be solved within the existing system through government oversight and a degree of socialized services that create social safety nets. Kind of like the system we have, just better. ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/124 "2005-08-19T00:20:14Z")
Okay, so much for my pipe dream. So we have a consensus that what we need is a better (in the words of Camille Paglia) governmental safety net? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/125 "2005-08-19T00:30:26Z")
Consensus?!? On THIS board? Surely you jest… 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/126 "2005-08-19T01:00:55Z")
Nope. Government (in the sense we know it at any rate) is not the answer to any insufficiencies of the market economy. As any libertarian will tell you, you end up substituting the unfairnesses of the free market with the unfairnesses of unequal authority that worsens the more you centralize power (i.e., give government more power to intervene in things). What we _need_ is a functioning anarchy: a decision-making apparatus that does _not_ rely on vertical hierarchies of power which can lead to a collective understanding that yes, we decided to build a bridge, we decided to do it as a suspension bridge located right here, we decided to start work on it September the 12th and so forth. ’ Feel free to do a board search for other threads I’ve participated in wherein I’ve explicated my concepts of a working, functional, pragmatic anarchy. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/127 "2005-08-19T14:29:42Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Nope. > > Government (in the sense we know it at any rate) is not the answer to any insufficiencies of the market economy. As any libertarian will tell you, you end up substituting the unfairnesses of the free market with the unfairnesses of unequal authority that worsens the more you centralize power (i.e., give government more power to intervene in things). Fridge groups tell us lots of stuff. It doesn’t mean they are correct. Government is, in fact, the answer to certain insufficiencies of the market. No one in their right mind would suggest that fire protection should be market driven. It is not, however, the answer to all market inequalities. > [@AHunter3](#): > > What we need is a functioning anarchy: a decision-making apparatus that does not rely on vertical hierarchies of power which can lead to a collective understanding that yes, we decided to build a bridge, we decided to do it as a suspension bridge located right here, we decided to start work on it September the 12th and so forth. I certainly would not wish to cross a bridge constructed under those circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/128 "2005-08-19T15:21:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Fridge groups tell us lots of stuff. FRINGE groups also tell us lots of stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/129 "2005-08-19T15:53:57Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Nope. > > Government (in the sense we know it at any rate) is not the answer to any insufficiencies of the market economy. As any libertarian will tell you, you end up substituting the unfairnesses of the free market with the unfairnesses of unequal authority that worsens the more you centralize power (i.e., give government more power to intervene in things). Tell that to the shareholders of Enron. Of Worldcom. Etc., etc., etc. Most libertarians are immune to the sufferings of others under unregulated capitalism. Libertarians will never have any real power until they can connect with the feelings of others on that topic. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/130 "2005-08-19T15:56:57Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Nope. > > Government (in the sense we know it at any rate) is not the answer to any insufficiencies of the market economy. As any libertarian will tell you, you end up substituting the unfairnesses of the free market with the unfairnesses of unequal authority that worsens the more you centralize power (i.e., give government more power to intervene in things). > > What we _need_ is a functioning anarchy: a decision-making apparatus that does _not_ rely on vertical hierarchies of power which can lead to a collective understanding… [No offense intended. :)] So, what are we supposed to be, Borg? :dubious: I am in favor of a government safety net, but it shouldn’t be monetary. Well, it should include some monetary considerations, but the overall effect is supposed to get people off their asses and find a job and be productive, not to be comfortable on welfare. Long story short, I did a senior thesis on this and advocated for increased geographic mobility amongst the population. In short, because wages are sticky, housing costs vary, and because there are different degrees of inflation and costs and taxes in different regions of the country. I had argued for a large government safety net, but most of it was non-monetary. One of my major reasons is that employers will be more likely to hire, if they knew that the candidate would have sufficent means of getting there, not on their dime. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/131 "2005-08-19T16:14:04Z")
**Evil Captor** : > [@](#): > > Tell that [= libertarians claiming govt intervention = substituting the unfairnesses of the free market with the unfairnesses of unequal authority] to the shareholders of Enron. Of Worldcom. Etc., etc., etc. Most libertarians are immune to the sufferings of others under unregulated capitalism. Libertarians will never have any real power until they can connect with the feelings of others on that topic As with Marxists and their spot-on critique of capitalism, the fact that libertarians do not have a solution to the problem does not make their critique any less valid. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/132 "2005-08-19T21:49:15Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Tell that to the shareholders of Enron. Of Worldcom. Etc., etc., etc. Most libertarians are immune to the sufferings of others under unregulated capitalism. Libertarians will never have any real power until they can connect with the feelings of others on that topic. I hate to tell you this but Enron and Worldcom have nothing to do with “capitalism”. Why it is constantly held up as a failing of capitalism by people who know next to nothing about economics is a mystery to me. ANY economics system is succeptible to individuals who wish to circumvent the rules of that system. To then say the system is flawed after those individuals have been identified and punished does not make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a8b319/32.png) [@Spatial\_Rift\_47](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spatial_Rift_47)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/133 "2005-08-20T02:55:19Z")
I’ll take fridge groups over fringe groups any day. 😛 Okay, so it seems what we have a consensus on is that there is a problem but no one really knows the answer. Say, what’s that sign over there say? “Square one.” Huh. Whaddya know. **AHunter** , I will do some digging and find your previous posts regarding a functional anarchy, but as I will be away from internet access for the next week I’ll be some time in getting back to you. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/134 "2005-08-20T05:44:45Z")
> [@Spatial Rift 47](#): > > Okay, so it seems what we have a consensus on is that there is a problem but no one really knows the answer. Well, I have my doubts you even have a consensus that there is a problem with our current system. In addition, I’d hazard a guess that most of us think WE know the ‘answer’ to the ‘problem’. Only thing is, most of us are going to give you a different answer based on our own world views. To me the ‘problem’ (well, A problem just to give an example) is over regulation and government interference in the market, an overly complex tax system, an too many compromises in various social government agencies (like health care and education) which means we end up spending a lot and getting shit for our return on investment. My ‘answer’ (again, just to give a small example and not open a whole can of worms) might include some deregulation and privatization of certain services that are currently being pooch screwed by the government. To others it might be the exact opposite…or perhaps a different problem/answer completely. Rather than a consensus I think you could say that over all the leaning of most in this thread is that capitalism is probably the best economic system out there…but that (one way or the other) it could use some improvement. Its a work in progress so to speak, very changable…which is probably its great strength (sort of like democracy). Trying to get a consensus on this board is worst than herding cats however…more like attempting to herd hungry tigers while having raw meat stapled to various portions of your anatomy. 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/135 "2005-08-20T10:44:32Z")
**AHunter3** have you read _A Voyage from Yesteryear_ which describes a functional anarchist system and how it might arise? It is a science fiction book, which I have just re-read. It relies a lot on advanced technology to make it work, and there is no scarcity of resources so there is no incentive for a capitalist system, which is a means of regulating scarce resources. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/136 "2005-08-20T14:41:30Z")
Again, this morning I came across an article that may be of interest (from a couple weeks ago): [In Finland’s Footsteps](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/05/AR2005080502015_pf.html), subtitled _If We’re So Rich and Smart, Why Aren’t We More Like Them?_ > [@](#): > > Finland is a leading example of the northern European view that a successful, competitive society should provide basic social services to all its citizens at affordable prices or at no cost at all. This isn’t controversial in Finland; it is taken for granted. For a patriotic American like me, the Finns present a difficult challenge: If we Americans are so rich and so smart, why can’t we treat our citizens as well as the Finns do? > > Finns have one of the world’s most generous systems of state-funded educational, medical and welfare services, from pregnancy to the end of life. They pay nothing for education at any level, including medical school or law school. Their medical care, which contributes to an infant mortality rate that is half of ours and a life expectancy greater than ours, costs relatively little. (Finns devote 7 percent of gross domestic product to health care; we spend 15 percent.) Finnish senior citizens are well cared for. Unemployment benefits are good and last, in one form or another, indefinitely. > > On the other hand, Finns live in smaller homes than Americans and consume a lot less. They spend relatively little on national defense, though they still have universal male conscription, and it is popular. Their per capita national income is about 30 percent lower than ours. Private consumption of goods and services represents about 52 percent of Finland’s economy, and 71 percent of the United States’. Finns pay considerably higher taxes – nearly half their national income is taken in taxes, while Americans pay about 30 percent on average to federal, state and local governments. I’ll leave it to the interested to read the article and discover the author’s conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690/137 "2005-08-20T15:21:27Z")
> [@rayh](#): > > …and there is no scarcity of resources… So there are no fluctuations in weather? (These readily produce scarcity of resources.) And no technological breakthroughs? Fads? Fashions? (All things that can rapidly change the effective scarcity of goods & services.) “No scarcity of resources” inherently implies the ability to predict and control the future. Rather a neat trick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-capitalism-again/316690.md?page=6)