# Let's talk about guns and Americans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363 "2012-12-17T22:07:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/21 "2012-12-18T02:23:54Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Do they (if you are a ‘gun loving’ 'Mercian; by now you should realize this is not a thread for you, it’s about you) really believe their society is served by fighting any sort of gun control? > > Why doesn’t the other, sane, part just go of and put some decent laws in place? I really think you are the majority. > > If you insist on debating with the wannabe John Wayne part of the populous why do you fall every time for the same tired tricks? By now you should be able to identify and shoot down all the bullshit arguments. Whew! Glad you brought that to the boards attention. I guess we are through with all those nasty gun threads now. Thanks! By the way I call bullshit on your reason for putting this in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/22 "2012-12-18T02:28:54Z")
**SenorBeef** , what kind of changes to the law would you propose? I agree, the AWB was a poorly-written law that didn’t have much of an effect other than to push up the prices of pre-ban hardware and piss a lot of people off. I went to close to 20 gun shows while the AWB was in effect and part of what I remember was a lot of trying to bypass the law, a lot of anti-Clinton merchandise (and related mid-90s right-wing craziness), and there was always someone selling some sort of trigger modification for semi-autos. Not being a gun owner (nothing against them, I just don’t have any reason to have one right now) and not knowing all the technical details, I’m still against trying to re-pass the AWB as it was written. I’d rather see better mental health care in this country, as well as perhaps more licensing and registration, perhaps a more extensive background check, but I’m not sure what would be reasonable when it comes to the actual hardware. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/23 "2012-12-18T02:31:16Z")
I have to admit that I have noticed a bit of ignorance on the part of pro-control posters here. Hey, gun laws are complicated and if you aren’t interested in guns, you won’t know a lot about them. But for a guy who claims to be able to be unconcerned about the likelihood of major gun legislation, you sure come off like a frightened gun nut, Senor. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/24 "2012-12-18T02:36:31Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > I have to admit that I have noticed a bit of ignorance on the part of pro-control posters here. Hey, gun laws are complicated and if you aren’t interested in guns, you won’t know a lot about them. Don’t let your complete lack of knowledge in the subject keep you from advocating > [@](#): > > But for a guy who claims to be able to be unconcerned about the likelihood of major gun legislation, you sure come off like a frightened gun nut, Senor. How do I sound frightened? No matter what I say, this plays into your “all gun owners are extremely frigthened with small penises” bullshit charicature. How is what I said actually fearful of anything? I’m just saying that you smarmy assholes all pat each other on the back on how enlightened and clever you are, calling all who oppose you brutish idiots, WHEN YOU ARE PROPOSING FUCKING STUPID THINGS. There isn’t going to be any new major gun law passed anytime soon. You can’t get the republicans to agree to country-saving laws that have no downside, you think you’re going to pass something as contentious as major gun control legislaton? But what you’re doing is firing up their base, and alienating people like me, who’s actually quite anti-republican and voted for obama twice, so good job on that. Convince yourself that all gun rights advocates are tiny penised, scared men who always vote republican, meanwhile you throw a fucking lifeline to the republican party by taking up the gun control banner. Morons. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/25 "2012-12-18T02:54:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Your ammunition proposal similarly betrays an ignorance of the subject. Ammunition is not all that high-tech: I have several friends who reload. This means they have dies and molds in their homes and essentially manufacture their own ammunition. Did you know how common this was? Or that it was possible? Cool your jets, there. I know a person who can sew clothing. But she doesn’t create clothes at industrial speeds. If we banned the manufacture of blue jeans, it would still lower access. This is so obvious that one wonders if you’re arguing this honestly. Guys who reload aren’t going to create a huge supply of black market bullets. Unless they run secret factories with staff and distribution. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/26 "2012-12-18T03:00:12Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Don’t let your complete lack of knowledge in the subject keep you from advocating I’m not the one who made a bogus claim (in another thread) and then handwaved it when it turned out my memory was faulty, Senor. You might try reading more and turning down the volume. Then you wouldn’t sound like a frightened gun nut. > [@](#): > > How do I sound frightened? No matter what I say, this plays into your “all gun owners are extremely frigthened with small penises” bullshit charicature. How is what I said actually fearful of anything? I’m just saying that you smarmy assholes all pat each other on the back on how enlightened and clever you are, calling all who oppose you brutish idiots, WHEN YOU ARE PROPOSING FUCKING STUPID THINGS. I don’t recall making any proposals. I don’t see you making any, either, although you just got asked for some. Nor have I made any of the slurs on gun owners that you’re talking about. If my memory is faulty, please provide a link and I’ll apologize. I don’t expect the same courtesy from you when you can’t. > [@](#): > > There isn’t going to be any new major gun law passed anytime soon. You can’t get the republicans to agree to country-saving laws that have no downside, you think you’re going to pass something as contentious as major gun control legislaton? I’m not so sure. The Democrats are talking up bringing back the assault weapon ban. I guess it could happen. In any event, I’m not the one passing it. I’m not even a Democrat. I’ve learned that my ability to make political predictions isn’t very good, anyway. All I’m saying is for a guy who says he’s not worried, you sound worried. Is that better? I didn’t say frightened this time. > [@](#): > > But what you’re doing is firing up their base, and alienating people like me, who’s actually quite anti-republican and voted for obama twice, so good job on that. Convince yourself that all gun rights advocates are tiny penised, scared men who always vote republican, meanwhile you throw a fucking lifeline to the republican party by taking up the gun control banner. Morons. The stats I’ve seen show that significant numbers of Americans support commonsense laws like registration requirements and bans on extended clips and semi-automatic rifles. I don’t have a problem with any of those. I don’t see why anybody would, really, unless they manufacture the items in question and think sales will be hurt. Hobbyists, maybe. I know if my hobby was linked, even only in the public mind, with massacres, I’d welcome legislation that addressed those fears, so long as I could continue to enjoy it. I’d say that you’re doing more harm to your side by demonizing and alienating people of potential goodwill than I ever could. Try a little rational discussion. You’ll sound less worried that way. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/27 "2012-12-18T03:06:02Z")
Why would a ban on semi-automatic rifles be a “commonsense” law? Because I it sounds to me like a law that would be proposed by someone who doesn’t know dick about rifles. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/28 "2012-12-18T03:47:34Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Cool your jets, there. I know a person who can sew clothing. But she doesn’t create clothes at industrial speeds. If we banned the manufacture of blue jeans, it would still lower access. This is so obvious that one wonders if you’re arguing this honestly. > > Guys who reload aren’t going to create a huge supply of black market bullets. Unless they run secret factories with staff and distribution. Another issue with reloading is that the cartridges do wear out and eventually cannot be reloaded. Also, if ammunition is restricted, it seems reasonable the powder and primers would be equally hard to acquire. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/29 "2012-12-18T03:53:01Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Why would a ban on semi-automatic rifles be a “commonsense” law? Semi-automatic rifles don’t serve enough practical purposes to make up for their efficiency in killing people. They’re overkill for hunting-- the rule of thumb I always heard was if you hear more than one shot, whoever is shooting missed. And, if you accept that self-defense is a legitimate use for guns, they’re overkill for that, too. What they’re good for is recreational shooting-- well, that’s the legitimate use that comes to mind. > [@](#): > > Because I > it sounds to me like a law that would be proposed by someone who doesn’t know dick about rifles. Possibly. What’s the difference? Would you feel better if whoever proposed such a change in the law worked in law enforcement? I don’t think it would be hard to find a cop who would agree with it. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/30 "2012-12-18T03:55:38Z")
What makes you think cops know dick about rifles? Or about guns in general beyond a passing familiarity with their service pistol? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/31 "2012-12-18T04:00:26Z")
> [@The\_Librarian](#): > > Why do such a huge portion of Americans think someone wants to ‘take their guns away’? Because someone does? I regularly see comments in these threads proposing banning handguns. I own handguns (three of the - and they’re all eevil semiautomatic pistols, too). When I hear people proposing handgun bans, it is quite reasonable for me to conclude they do in fact want to take my guns away. > [@](#): > > Do they (if you are a ‘gun loving’ 'Mercian; by now you should realize this is not a thread for you, it’s about you) really believe their society is served by fighting any sort of gun control? No, we believe in fighting idiotic gun control measures which don’t actually accomplish anything other than harassing law abiding gun owners. Unfortunately, that turns out to be most of the gun control measures proposed (largely because the people proposing them know little about the subject they’re trying to regulate). ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/32 "2012-12-18T04:07:43Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Semi-automatic rifles don’t serve enough practical purposes to make up for their efficiency in killing people. They’re overkill for hunting-- the rule of thumb I always heard was if you hear more than one shot, whoever is shooting missed. And, if you accept that self-defense is a legitimate use for guns, they’re overkill for that, too. What they’re good for is recreational shooting-- well, that’s the legitimate use that comes to mind.Possibly. What’s the difference? Would you feel better if whoever proposed such a change in the law worked in law enforcement? I don’t think it would be hard to find a cop who would agree with it. Fucking brilliant. 10,000+ gun related deaths in this country, and you think its common sense to ban the ones that are responsible for a small handful of them per year. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/33 "2012-12-18T04:19:14Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Would you feel better if whoever proposed such a change in the law worked in law enforcement? I don’t think it would be hard to find a cop who would agree with it. Here is some information from a law enforcement officer about “assault weapons” From this [page](http://www.armywtfmoments.com/assault-rifles-vs-rifles-explained#.UM_qVR-Dl8F) > [@](#): > > Assault Rifles vs Rifles explained > David | December 17, 2012 > > By: Patrick McAleer > > Let me put this out there so all my gun-ban happy friends can understand… and keep in mind this is coming from a Law Enforcement and Dept of Defense firearms instructor and subject matter expert: > > An assault rifle is a fully automatic rifle. This means that as long as the trigger is depressed the rifle will continue to fire at a cyclic rate of around 550-600 rounds per minute. The firearms these politicians and pundits are talking about are not fully automatic. > > A semi automatic rifle fires only one round per pull of the trigger, just like any other hunting or target rifle ever made. > > Fully automatic weapons have been essentially illegal since 1934 and the sole homicide committed with a legally owned fully automatic weapon was committed by a police officer. > > Fully automatic rifle fire is so ineffective that the US military removed this capability from their battle rifle the M14 and also removed it from it’s successor the M16A2 and M4 carbine. > > There is no such thing as a “high powered assault rifle”. The cartridges designed for military use are designed to be LOW powered and effective out to 500m. > > The cartridges these rifles chamber are not deadly. Quite the opposite, they were designed specifically to produce survivable wounds when fired center of mass in order to remove not one person from the field but 3 (the casualty and two to carry the litter) as well as to put a logistical strain on the opposing force and to create morale issues amongst the troops and also amongst the civilian population. > > The US military is seeking to replace the 5.56 round used in both the M16 and the look-alike AR15 due to incredibly poor performance on the field, with some combatants taking 4 or 5 center of mass shots and remaining mission effective for several minutes afterwards. > > Performance of the 5.56 round is so poor the US military has reissued old stock of the M14 rifle, chambered for a full power round to address soldier’s concerns that the 5.56 does not provide adequate terminal ballistics to the point of it being a liability in CQB. > > Firing 30 rounds from three 10 round magazines takes on average 2.3 seconds longer than firing 30 rounds from a single magazine- and that time addition is for someone who has had one hour of instruction on the M16 series rifle with the selector on semi. > > One cannot buy any firearm through the mail or online. One may pay for a firearm online or through the mail but the firearm must go to a Federally licensed firearms dealer who then conducts an FBI background check before the buyer is allowed to touch the firearm. > > Of course the above is pure, unadulterated truth so it will be gleefully ignored by the ignorant in favor of emotion and hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/34 "2012-12-18T04:23:14Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Fucking brilliant. 10,000+ gun related deaths in this country, and you think its common sense to ban the ones that are responsible for a small handful of them per year. All I said was that there is public support for such a ban. I agree that they kill relatively few people-- guns kill relatively few people, even in the US. I notice that you didn’t quibble with my assertion that semi-automatic rifles serve no legitimate purpose that outweighs their capacity for slaughtering humans-- that’s the commonsense part. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/35 "2012-12-18T04:26:20Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Here is some information from a law enforcement officer about “assault weapons” > From this [page](http://www.armywtfmoments.com/assault-rifles-vs-rifles-explained#.UM_qVR-Dl8F) Knew the distinction between assault rifles and semi-automatics already, thanks anyway. I’m not sure that people unaware of the difference need to know, because fully automatic weapons are already banned. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/36 "2012-12-18T04:27:02Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > Fucking brilliant. 10,000+ gun related deaths in this country, and you think its common sense to ban the ones that are responsible for a small handful of them per year. Sure would be nice to have those people in Connecticut back. Maybe they’re just a handful, but I wish they were still alive. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/37 "2012-12-18T04:28:08Z")
To say they serve no legitimate purpose exposes your total ignorance of the subject. It isn’t worth arguing over, especially since hunting rifles are basically never used as efficient human-killing machines. Nothing about any of that is common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/38 "2012-12-18T04:29:24Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Sure would be nice to have those people in Connecticut back. Maybe they’re just a handful, but I wish they were still alive. That’s a ridiculous appeal to emotion that could be used to justify literally any regulation of any kind. Not just gun control. On top of that, a ban on hunting rifles wouldn’t have saved any of those children’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Hartwick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@Dave\_Hartwick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Hartwick)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/39 "2012-12-18T04:49:12Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > To say they serve no legitimate purpose exposes your total ignorance of the subject. It isn’t worth arguing over, especially since hunting rifles are basically never used as efficient human-killing machines. Nothing about any of that is common sense. Again, not what I said. I said that they’re good for sport shooting, which is, of course, a legitimate use. Personally, if I was in any position to make rules, I’d say that people could own or rent semi automatics for sport shooting so long as they were kept in secured, licensed sporting clubs. I’m not. They might get banned altogether. If it was my hobby, I guess I might be a little bummed. I guess I should make clear that I mean target shooting, not hunting, because you seem determined to put words in my mouth. Nobody needs a semi automatic for hunting. Strikes me as lazy, really. This whole line y’all are taking that only the ignorant support gun control is amusing, seeing how a [recent survey](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/25/us-usa-shooting-denver-guns-idUSBRE86O02O20120725) shows most gun owners are in favor of some additional restrictions. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/40 "2012-12-18T05:02:06Z")
> [@Dave\_Hartwick](#): > > Again, not what I said. I said that they’re good for sport shooting, which is, of course, a legitimate use. Personally, if I was in any position to make rules, I’d say that people could own or rent semi automatics for sport shooting so long as they were kept in secured, licensed sporting clubs. I’m not. They might get banned altogether. If it was my hobby, I guess I might be a little bummed. > > I guess I should make clear that I mean target shooting, not hunting, because you seem determined to put words in my mouth. Nobody needs a semi automatic for hunting. Strikes me as lazy, really. > > This whole line y’all are taking that only the ignorant support gun control is amusing, seeing how a [recent survey](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/25/us-usa-shooting-denver-guns-idUSBRE86O02O20120725) shows most gun owners are in favor of some additional restrictions. You’re the one putting words in my mouth if you think I’m opposed to any additional restrictions. You’re also wrong about semi-automatics serving no legitimate hunting use. You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about if you think using one for hunting is lazy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363.md?page=3)