# Let's talk about guns and Americans **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2012, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363 "2012-12-17T22:07:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/121 "2012-12-19T18:00:58Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > And I love it how every gun owner insists that they would rather have a gun instead of a home alarm system at night because ‘I’m totally a light sleeper, I’d totally wake up and be ready for action in a split second’ and ‘I could totally unlock my gun from its secure locked casing in the dark in like 3 seconds and would totally be ready to blow a hole in the bad guy before he could shoot me’. Funny, I seem to recall saying I have a gun AND a home security system. And that I sleep with my bedroom door locked (so I’m going to have more than three seconds to act). Don’t assume that everyone else in the world shares your ineptness. Plenty of us don’t. > [@](#): > > Nice to know you’d rather trust in how quickly you’ll wake up over an alarm system. Hint: bad guys tend to run away when lights and alarms go off. In fact, just having a home security sign posted is more than sufficient deterrent. What are you up to that you’re so concerned about big bad guys being ‘so determined to get in’? You do know that in some cases it’s possible for an intruder to get in without setting off a security system? Security systems aren’t perfect. And not all bad guys run away when the lights and alarms go off. Those are the ones to worry about. I doubt I’ll ever need to use my gun defensively. But in the unlikely event that I do need a firearm, I’ll need it badly. That’s why I own one. (Well, and also because punching holes in paper targets is fun - but that’s a secondary consideration.) ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/122 "2012-12-19T19:47:53Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Of course I do, sweet heart. Be pretty hard to have them on during the day when you’re walking around the house - 'course, that gun doesn’t do you much good either if it’s locked under your bed when you’re at home when the big baddy storms in during the day (when most burlgeries happen) - so I guess you walk around the house armed the entire time? > > And I love it how every gun owner insists that they would rather have a gun instead of a home alarm system at night because ‘I’m totally a light sleeper, I’d totally wake up and be ready for action in a split second’ and ‘I could totally unlock my gun from its secure locked casing in the dark in like 3 seconds and would totally be ready to blow a hole in the bad guy before he could shoot me’. > > Nice to know you’d rather trust in how quickly you’ll wake up over an alarm system. Hint: bad guys tend to run away when lights and alarms go off. In fact, just having a home security sign posted is more than sufficient deterrent. What are you up to that you’re so concerned about big bad guys being ‘so determined to get in’? Why don’t you shove the condescending attitude up your pretty little ass. I know more about this subject than your feeble brain is capable of understanding. I had 2 guys force their way into my house in 1997 at 3:00pm on a Saturday, in the middle of a thunderstorm, and it wasn’t very hard for my roommate to get to his shotgun. I don’t need any lectures about ease of access from the internet’s biggest moron. It’s already been explained to you that a biometric safe is extremely easy to get into, so why don’t you get that point through your thick skull, you stupid, stupid person. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/123 "2012-12-20T12:05:50Z")
And you can take your penis extension and shove it up your ass as far as you can and sit-‘n’-spin while saying little thank yous to the 20 kids at Sandy Hook for paying the price so that you can continue living in a paranoid, delusional haze. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/124 "2012-12-20T12:19:41Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > And you can take your penis extension and shove it up your ass as far as you can and sit-‘n’-spin while saying little thank yous to the 20 kids at Sandy Hook for paying the price so that you can continue living in a paranoid, delusional haze. I’m neither paranoid nor delusional. And in fact I AM grateful to those kids - just as I’m grateful to those kids who die of preventable diseases because their stupid parents read on the Internet that vaccines cause autism (thanks to the First Ammendment), who are murdered by some killer who was let loose after a previous crime instead of being jailed because the police collected evidence improperly and that evidence couldn’t be used in his trial (thanks to the Fourth Ammendment , Fifth Ammendment, and Sixth Ammendment), and those kids killed by a drunk driver (thanks to our national love affair with cars and the repeal of the Eighteenth Ammendment). Freedom is costly. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/125 "2012-12-20T12:40:59Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > And you can take your penis extension and shove it up your ass as far as you can and sit-‘n’-spin while saying little thank yous to the 20 kids at Sandy Hook for paying the price so that you can continue living in a paranoid, delusional haze. I don’t own a penis extension, you unoriginal idiot. Nor do I own a handgun. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/126 "2012-12-20T12:54:20Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > I’m neither paranoid nor delusional. And in fact I AM grateful to those kids - just as I’m grateful to those kids who die of preventable diseases because their stupid parents read on the Internet that vaccines cause autism (thanks to the First Ammendment), who are murdered by some killer who was let loose after a previous crime instead of being jailed because the police collected evidence improperly and that evidence couldn’t be used in his trial (thanks to the Fourth Ammendment , Fifth Ammendment, and Sixth Ammendment), and those kids killed by a drunk driver (thanks to our national love affair with cars and the repeal of the Eighteenth Ammendment). > > Freedom is costly. I wish people who love to cite the Second Amendment could spell it. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/127 "2012-12-20T13:04:02Z")
I hadn’t planned on getting back in on this circle jerk, but spelling smack? really? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/128 "2012-12-20T13:31:34Z")
It’s pretty simple actually: The United States was founded by a successful revolution, in which irregular resistance by armed citizens was a component (though hardly the decisive one) of victory. That’s not unique to the USA; Mexico technically has similar guarantees of gun ownership established after its revolution in the early 20th century. What is perhaps different in the case of the USA is a combination of things: For starters the USA was formed as a federation of states who were suspicious of central authority, and given that the states were forbidden to maintain their own permanent standing armies, some sort of militia of armed citizenry was necessary for local defense and law keeping. This fit in with the founders ideological vision of emulating the citizen-soldier examples of democratic Athens, the Roman Republic, and the Swiss confederation. And for a century after the American Revolution the country had a frontier where private arms were necessary in the absence of strong central government and threats from the indigenous peoples. In short, it’s taken a lot longer for the ideal of an armed populace to be whittled down to the pragmatic stance of most centralized governments: a disarmed population policed by professional government forces. Mexico is a good example; the promises established in the Mexican constitution were gradually watered down until today it’s very hard for a Mexican citizen to lawfully own a gun at all, and such guns as are allowed are almost token in their smallness and weakness. By contrast Pakistan, which also has a constitutional guarantee of the right to keep and bear arms, barely has any central control at all over many rural and tribal areas, and as such private weapons are ubiquitous. The American dream- or fantasy, or delusion depending on your viewpoint- is trying to retain at least the semblance of freedom from a central authority that dictates the terms of one’s life which one has no choice but to meekly obey. Privately owned firearms are one of the last vestiges of this former freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/129 "2012-12-20T13:42:06Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I hadn’t planned on getting back in on this circle jerk, but spelling smack? really? Wow, I’m impressed it was significant enough to pull you back in to the pit! For me it was a throwaway line focused on a pet peeve that seems especially prevalent among people who are typically focused on one amendment. I think it’s because they’re thinking “ammo” while typing “amendment”. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/130 "2012-12-20T13:56:06Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Wow, I’m impressed it was significant enough to pull you back in to the pit! For me it was a throwaway line focused on a pet peeve that seems especially prevalent among people who are typically focused on one amendment. I think it’s because they’re thinking “ammo” while typing “amendment”. No, it’s because I’m posting from an iPad which didn’t pick up the spelling error, and I’ve never been the greatest speller and rely on spell-check. Thanks for playing. My pet peeve is people who insist on stereotyping gun owners as ignorant rednecks, just so you know. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/131 "2012-12-20T14:02:08Z")
> [@For You](#): > > I know that when I pick up a gun, I am not the same person that I was. Perhaps even having a gun in the house may affect who I am, and I strongly believe that this is not unique to me. A gun in hand changes one’s outlook and behavior. When I got my gun the only “change” in my outlook was a determination to live up to the responsibility of safely owning a gun- to be _worthy_ of it. This meant getting a vault to store it in, gun classes so I could actually shoot it accurately, and qualifying for a carry permit which in my state means being knowledgeable about guns and my state’s laws pertaining to them. I think it made me a better person. You’re the second poster who’s said something like your post above and I’m amazed and disturbed. You actually think of guns like the “gonne” in the Discworld story _Men At Arms_, a device that whispers “kill! kill! kill!” in your head? I think if they do end up having psychological screening for gun ownership, you’d flunk. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/132 "2012-12-20T14:10:18Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > So…gun enthusiasts, what kind of gun control laws do you think _would_ reduce gun crime? I’m seeing a lot of ‘this proposed law is stupid because of ’, but not ‘I would change that law to say [y] because it makes more sense’. Or do you believe that there shouldn’t be any laws regarding gun control? I think requiring guns to be secured when not being carried is a reasonable measure- that is, in a quick-access gun safe, not the idiocy of keeping it unloaded with the bullets separate, etc. This would require responsibility while not infringing on lawful gun owners, and would help prevent shootings by people who weren’t supposed to have those guns. I do a :smack: every time I read of some kid finding an unsecured gun around the house. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/133 "2012-12-20T14:17:48Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > You’re the second poster who’s said something like your post above and I’m amazed and disturbed. You actually think of guns like the “gonne” in the Discworld story _Men At Arms_, a device that whispers “kill! kill! kill!” in your head? I think if they do end up having psychological screening for gun ownership, you’d flunk. In [one gun thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675892) we have **Boyo Jim** expressing a willingness to burn “every damn one” of the gun owners who would refuse to turn in their weapons. In [another](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675953), we have **foolsguinea** expressing his desire to make gun possession an automatic death penalty offense. Here we have **For You** describing disturbing psychological changes he believes experiences just from picking up a gun. I haven’t participated in all the gun threads running right now, but I’d hazard it wouldn’t be hard to find more such crazy shit from antis in them. I can only conclude that some percentage of antis believe that nobody can be trusted with a gun because they know that they are not, themselves, trustworthy. They make the mistake of assuming everybody shares their bloodthirsty desires. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/134 "2012-12-20T14:24:53Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > In [one gun thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675892) we have **Boyo Jim** expressing a willingness to burn “every damn one” of the gun owners who would refuse to turn in their weapons. In [another](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=675953), we have **foolsguinea** expressing his desire to make gun possession an automatic death penalty offense. Here we have **For You** describing disturbing psychological changes he believes experiences just from picking up a gun. I haven’t participated in all the gun threads running right now, but I’d hazard it wouldn’t be hard to find more such crazy shit from antis in them. > I can only conclude that some percentage of antis believe that nobody can be trusted with a gun because they know that they are not, themselves, trustworthy. They make the mistake of assuming everybody shares their bloodthirsty desires. If you could link to the posts rather than the whole thread, that would make it easier to check your interpretations of what others have written. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/135 "2012-12-20T14:34:26Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > If you could link to the posts rather than the whole thread, that would make it easier to check your interpretations of what others have written. Thanks. If I link their individual posts, then the cries that I took things out of context will begin. To fully appreciate their madness you need to read their interaction with others. Or, you can just go ahead and assume that I am misinterpreting everything they said, whichever makes you more comfortable. I’ve done back and forth with you enough in these threads to recognize that you are not going to change your opinions on the issue at hand no matter what, so I’m not willing to expend any effort at all on “proving” anything to you. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/136 "2012-12-20T14:36:34Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > If I link their individual posts, then the cries that I took things out of context will begin. To fully appreciate their madness you need to read their interaction with others. Or, you can just go ahead and assume that I am misinterpreting everything they said, whichever makes you more comfortable. I’ve done back and forth with you enough in these threads to recognize that you are not going to change your opinions on the issue at hand no matter what, so I’m not willing to expend any effort at all on “proving” anything to you. So you want to allude-cite to them, but not actually cite them? That seems pretty gutless of you. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/137 "2012-12-20T14:41:32Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So you want to allude-cite to them, but not actually cite them? That seems pretty gutless of you. Their posts are in the threads, which are not exceptionally long, and are best read in context. You won’t budge an iota, no matter what, anyway. Read the threads or fuck off, or both. I don’t have a preference which choice you make. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/138 "2012-12-20T15:25:01Z")
FWIW, links to the exact posts: **Boyo Jim** ’s “burn” comments: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807640&postcount=17](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807640&postcount=17) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807836&postcount=22](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807836&postcount=22) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807859&postcount=25](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15807859&postcount=25) **foolsguinea** ’s death penalty comment: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15812490&postcount=74](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15812490&postcount=74) ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/139 "2012-12-20T16:00:36Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I think requiring guns to be secured when not being carried is a reasonable measure- that is, in a quick-access gun safe, not the idiocy of keeping it unloaded with the bullets separate, etc. This would require responsibility while not infringing on lawful gun owners, and would help prevent shootings by people who weren’t supposed to have those guns. I do a :smack: every time I read of some kid finding an unsecured gun around the house. Wait - so what you’re saying is you’re okay with keeping a loaded gun in a gun safe, but unloaded, unsecured guns are bad? I dunno, what if the kid finds the way into the safe? Plus having it in a safe doesn’t account for people who don’t think their kids and/or teens would do something so they give them the code. Someone like Adam Lanza’s mother would have trusted him with the combo. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363/140 "2012-12-20T16:01:46Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I think requiring guns to be secured when not being carried is a reasonable measure- that is, in a quick-access gun safe, **not the idiocy of keeping it unloaded with the bullets separate** , etc. Bolding mine. But [your favorite organization](http://training.nra.org/nra-gun-safety-rules.aspx)says guns should be kept unloaded until ready to use. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-guns-and-americans/644363.md?page=8)