# Let's talk about Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 3, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059 "2010-08-03T21:22:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/1 "2010-08-03T21:22:15Z")
Specifically, let’s talk about whether or not the concept of Hell as a place of eternal, conscious suffering exists in the Bible. This thread is a response to some requests in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12759374#post12759374), which has given rise to a few side discussions of theology and the Bible. The question of whether Hell exists in the Bible was one of them. My thesis is that it does not. Here is my argument. I will address it in two parts, first the instances of words commonly translated as “Hell” in English versions of the Bible, and then to apparent references to eternal punishment which don’t necessarily us a place name. **Part 1: The Word “Hell”** Every word commonly translated as “Hell” in English versions of the Bible has a different meaning in the Hebrew or Greek of the original language. It should also be mentioned that Jewish concepts of death and the afterlife changed over time, and the Bible reflects that. The words commonly translated as Hell are the Hebrew word, _Sheol_ (used throughout the Old Testament), the Greek rendering of _Gehenna_ in the new Testament, the Greek word _Hades_, and in one instance, the Greek word _Tartarus_. [_Sheol_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheol), the word used in the OT, was a Hebrew word which referred, in ancient [Jewish beliefs](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=614&letter=S), to a common abode of the dead, used synonmously wirh “grave” or “pit,” which everybody, good and bad, went to after death. Jewish beliefs about it evolved over time. At first it appears to basically have a been a place of nothingness, no real experience at all, where the dead existed as shades or shadows, if at all, and which did not originally contain any concepts of judgement or resurrection. Eventually, Persian and Greek influence influenced Jewish theology to evolve its on eschaton (a belief in an end of the world, a resurrection and a day of judgement, which they got from Zorastrianism during the Babylonian exile), and _Sheol_ became thought of as a temporary holding tank before the eventual judgement and resurrection of the dead (after which, people would either be given eternal life or simply annihilated). By the 2nd Temple period, the idea of punishment and reward within _Sheol_ (but still before the resurrection and final judgement) had begun to appear, where _Sheol_ was conceived as being divided into a good side (sometimes called the [“Bosom of Abraham”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham)) for good people and a burny side for bad people. That particular belief is reflected in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in [Luke 16](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=KJV) (the word translated there as “Hell” is actually _Hades_ in the Greek. Those words were used virtually interchangably, and the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible routinely translates _Sheol_ as _Hades_). While the use of the word _Sheol_ has some nuance in the Bible (sometimes it is used as little more than a synonym for death or the grave, sometimes it’s more like the Greek underworld), it can never be accurately translated as “Hell.” It’s never conceived of as eternal, and everybody goes there. The next word next most commonly translated as “Hell” is _Gehenna_, which appears 12 times in the NT (Matt.5:22,29,30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6), mostly by Jesus. Gehenna is an English translitration of the Koine rendering (by way of Aramaic) of the Hebrew _Ge Hinnon_ or “Valley of Hinnom,” which wa a real valley southwest of Jerusalem. In antiquity, this Valley was said to have been a site of child sacrifices to Molech, and was therefore viewed as cursed and literally God forsaken. Some accounts also say it was a garbage dump and a disposal site for animal carcasses, and sometimes criminals (though I understand that some archaeologists have now challenged this). Regardless, it was prophesied by Jeremiah that this valley would be the wite where God would cast the bodies of the wicked ([Jer.7:30-32](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=jeremiah%207&version=NIV)), and this was the popular belief at the time of Jesus, and this is what Jesus references repeatedly in Matthew and Mark (where he also alludes to Isaiah 66 with his “worm does not die and the fire is not quenched” remarks). In none of the instances where Jesus refers to Gehenna is he talking about eternal hell, but popular cultural beliefs about a real valley, where the OT said bad people would be destroyed in fire. The flames might be eternal, but not the suffering. It was a death, a destruction, not etenal torment. The other translations are _Hades_, which, as I’ve said, was pretty much synonmous with _Sheol_, and one use of the word _Tartarus_ in 1 Peter. Tartarus was a pit, an abyss, within Hades, where the worst people went. That’s an instance where the author was using Tartarus as an analogy to the bad part of _Sheol_. That pretty much does it for the translations. I’m going to post this, and go get a Brett Favre update then work on part two. Feel free to comment, rebut, rebuke, debate, mock or praise what I’ve got so far in the meanwhile. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/2 "2010-08-03T21:27:04Z")
“… there’s also a Heck. It’s not as severe, but we have Heck _and_ Hell.” -George Carlin ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/3 "2010-08-03T21:44:56Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “… there’s also a Heck. It’s not as severe, but we have Heck _and_ Hell.” > -George Carlin Heck is presided over by Phil, The Prince Of Insufficient Light. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/4 "2010-08-03T21:46:20Z")
Lest the joking dominate, I want to step in and thank **Dio** for posting this. very clear and informative. praise +1 ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/5 "2010-08-03T22:16:44Z")
I thought the concept of biblical hell was lifted from zoroastrianism, and the original zoroastrian hell was temporary. [http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking\_Christian\_Arguments/Page28.htm](http://www.happierabroad.com/Debunking_Christian_Arguments/Page28.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/6 "2010-08-03T22:21:09Z")
Very clear, and I look forward to part 2. It looks, though, like you haven’t left us much to discuss yet. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/7 "2010-08-03T22:41:04Z")
Yes, I would be interested in reading about how the current popular version of Hell as permanent torture (at least of the soul) came to be current and popular. Is that going to be in part deux? Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/8 "2010-08-03T22:45:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In none of the instances where Jesus refers to Gehenna is he talking about eternal hell, but popular cultural beliefs about a real valley, where the OT said bad people would be destroyed in fire. The flames might be eternal, but not the suffering. It was a death, a destruction, not etenal torment. I believe this interpretation is consistent with “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” i.e. people who don’t go to Heaven don’t go to Hell, they perish (i.e. are destroyed) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/9 "2010-08-03T22:52:02Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Yes, I would be interested in reading about how the current popular version of Hell as permanent torture (at least of the soul) came to be current and popular. Is that going to be in part deux? > Roddy If you thought \*Hell \*was bad, just wait for the sequel! **Diogenes** : Can you define “The Bible”? I mean, there is The Bible, and then there are lots of other writings that could have been included in The Bible, but didn’t make the cut (either by the Jews or the Christians). The reason I ask is I’m wondering if some of our modern sense of what hell is comes from those still old, but extra-Biblical texts. Or did this modern sense of hell arise in more recent history (during the Middle Ages, perhaps)? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/10 "2010-08-03T22:53:21Z")
Apostles Creed has the bit of “He descended into Hell. He rose again from the dead.” Some congregations do not use that bit, however. I always took Hell to simply be the absence of grace and love - which is the ultimate torture. You lose everything, nobody loves you, nobody is there with you. You are all alone with no comfort or care. Ugh. Sounds like, well, Hell. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/11 "2010-08-03T22:56:02Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I always took Hell to simply be the absence of grace and love - which is the ultimate torture. You lose everything, nobody loves you, nobody is there with you. You are all alone with no comfort or care. > > Ugh. Sounds like, well, Hell. I could handle that, as long as there are no pesky flames distracting me from my active fantasy life. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/12 "2010-08-03T23:00:07Z")
**Part 2: "Eternal Punishment"** There is one passage of the the New Testament where Jesus makes reference to something commonly translated as “eternal (or “everlasting”) punishment.” That’s in Matthew 25:46, right at the end of the parable of the Sheep and the Goats: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” The words translated as “eternal life” are \*kolasin aionion. _Aionion_ is an adjectival form of _aion_ meaning “age” or “era.” The adjective _aionion_ doesn’t have a precise English equivalent, but it’s basically akin to saying something like “age-y” or “long-time-y.” Sometimes you see it translated as “age-enduring” or “age-lasting,” which isn’t relly precise either but at least are English words. The point with this is that it doesn’t actually mean “eternal,” but more like “indefinitely” or “for a long time.” I think what’s more significant, though, is that the word _kolasin_, which frequently gets translated as “punishment.” What that word actually, literally means is “pruning off,” “lopping off” as with a tree. Figuratively it meant “restraint,” “correction,” “penalty,” but literally, it just means cut off like a bad branch on a tree. While, as I said, the word can carry a meaning of correction or penalty, it does not have a meaning of ongoing punishment, and this is a case where Jesus is still talking about the theme of annihilation for the wicked, not eternal punishment. Even if we accept _aionion_ as “everlasting” (which it desn’t really bother me to do, even though it’s not precise), it still refers to an eternal “pruning off,” not eternal torment. **But what about the lake of fire in revelation** Good question. I’ll do that next. I have some dad stuff I have to take care of right now, though. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/13 "2010-08-03T23:03:11Z")
New King James version; Ecclesiastes 9:5- _For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward. For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred and their envy have now perished. Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun._ This would tend to say that when you’re dead, you’re dead. Gone, Nothing. That there is no resurrection, no afterlife. Now of course, there are parts of Isaiah which would seem to contradict this (A Song of Salvation), but I seem to recall another verse (that I cannot find offhand) from the Old Testament where the above belief is affirmed, that the dead simply exist no more. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/14 "2010-08-03T23:07:26Z")
I was going to make a comment, but then I decided, to hell with it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/15 "2010-08-03T23:08:26Z")
What about the rich man/Dives being tormented in the flame? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/16 "2010-08-03T23:12:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What about the rich man/Dives being tormented in the flame? > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > By the 2nd Temple period, the idea of punishment and reward within _Sheol_ (but still before the resurrection and final judgement) had begun to appear, where _Sheol_ was conceived as being divided into a good side (sometimes called the [“Bosom of Abraham”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosom_of_Abraham)) for good people and a burny side for bad people. That particular belief is reflected in the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man in [Luke 16](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+16&version=KJV) (the word translated there as “Hell” is actually _Hades_ in the Greek. Those words were used virtually interchangably, and the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Bible routinely translates _Sheol_ as _Hades_). ??? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/17 "2010-08-03T23:16:23Z")
Found this on the TVTropes page [Fire and Brimstone Hell:](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FireAndBrimstoneHell) > [@](#): > > In a series of books _for children,_ the nineteenth-century missionary priest John Furniss (pronounced “furnace”?) provided vivid word-pictures of Fire And Brimstone Hell: > > See! It is a pitiful sight. The little child is in this red hot oven. Hear how it screams to come out. See how it turns and twists itself about in the fire. It beats its head against the roof of the oven. It stamps its little feet on the floor of the oven. You can see on the face of this little child what you see on the faces of all in hell — despair, desperate and horrible! … God was very good to this child. Very likely God saw that this child would get worse and worse, and would never repent, and so it would have to be punished much more in hell. So God, in His mercy, called it out of the world in its early childhood. > > Perhaps at this moment, seven o’clock in the evening, a child is just going into hell. To-morrow evening at seven o’clock, go and knock at the gates of hell, and ask what the child is doing. The devils will go and look. Then they will come back again and say, the child is burning! Go in a week and asked what the child is doing; you will get the same answer — it is burning! Go in a year and ask; the same answer comes — it is burning! Go in a million of years and ask the same question; the answer is just the same — it is burning! So, if you go for ever and ever, you will always get the same answer — it is burning in the fire! This [John Furniss](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Furniss) was a Catholic priest. Protestants of the day could get even fiercer. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/18 "2010-08-03T23:24:23Z")
As usual, I agree with **Diogenes** IIRC It was Elijah who said “The soul that sinneth shall die”. IMO, this clearly implies that the wicked cease to exist when their bodies die. No, hell, no anything. A common prayer ( I cannot remember which one just now) includes the line “Thou keepest faith with those who sleep in the dust” IMO this clearly implies an actual, physical resurrection of the faithful. Note that Orthodox Judaism has long been against cremation because of the belief that the dead will be resurrected in the time of the messiah. This belief is also the reason some Jewish scholars are against organ donation. It’s also worth noting that Judaism is much less concerned with the afterlife than Christianity. Judaism places a low value on believing and a high value on action. Believe in G-d or don’t. What happens after death isn’t really important. What matters is what you do here and now. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/19 "2010-08-03T23:27:46Z")
Posting to subscribe. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059/20 "2010-08-04T00:32:50Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Apostles Creed has the bit of “He descended into Hell. He rose again from the dead.” …and then Rocky won the heavyweight championship. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-hell/549059.md?page=2)