# Let's talk about modern folk music, and why it's weird and silly for the most part **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [July 17, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193 "2007-07-17T22:56:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/61 "2007-07-20T19:19:18Z")
[QUOTE=Plynck] But really, you won’t be, will you? Because you said “If \*I think that \* they suck”, and not “If they suck”. And because of that, I think that you can tell that “XYZ sucks” implies a general agreement or a concensus that “I think XYZ sucks” does not. Hence my comment: _“It’s fine to say to those who share your opinions, and offensive to those who do not.”_ [/quote] I do not at all agree that saying, “XYZ sucks,” implies any sort of consensus, nor would a consensus on a subjective matter prove much of anything in particular. If five million people say XYZ is great, and one person says it sucks, that one person’s opinion is every bit as true as the five million’s. > [@](#): > > Considering that the poster disparaged artists that were previously cited as favorites by other posters, this implication of concensus could hardly be justified, and in fact could be seen as either thoughtless (looking at it charitably), or provocative (rather less charitably). If this thread were titled, “Let’s all talk about how totally awesome folk music is!” you might have a point. But the purpose of this thread is, rather explicitly, to talk about how bad folk music is. Given the premise of the OP, any folk music fans reading this thread has got to be prepared to see their favorite artists take a few shots. > [@](#): > > Look at the responses to that post, and tell me that I’m the only one being ridiculously over-sensitive. I never said you were alone. > [@](#): > > FWIW, many of the artists cited herein appeal to me, and I’m taking note of the ones I don’t know to check them out. In my opinion, Judy Collins was never much more than an interpreter, and for many years she hasn’t even been good at that. Joan Baez turns my stomach, although she has good taste in finding new artists to steal from. But both of them can still command an audience, so I’m hardly going to say that they suck. They just appeal to a different group. And I’m hardly going to write off a genre when there are so many different niches filled with talented people, singing their own personal vision. Shouldn’t that be “I think she turns my stomach?” 😉 But seriously, how is, “Joan Baez turns my stomach,” less offensive than, “Joan Baez sucks?” They’re expressing exactly the same sentiment. For that matter, you never explained why, “Joan Baez sucks,” is offensive, but “Joan Baez is awesome,” does not. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/62 "2007-07-20T19:45:31Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Shouldn’t that be “I think she turns my stomach?” 😉 But seriously, how is, “Joan Baez turns my stomach,” less offensive than, “Joan Baez sucks?” They’re expressing exactly the same sentiment. For that matter, you never explained why, “Joan Baez sucks,” is offensive, but “Joan Baez is awesome,” does not. [/QUOTE] No, I \*know \*she turns my stomach. No thinking required. 😃 But I’m not saying or implying that she turns anyone else’s stomach. Just that I shouldn’t eat before listening. I would only say that saying “So-and-so is awesome” is a positively expressed statement (often overused or overly enthusiastic, to be sure), but has no implied reflection on another’s tastes , while saying “So-and-so sucks” is negative and does just that. I hear people express liking for all manner of things that I don’t care for, but I don’t feel the need to piss on their opinions. There’s a diplomatic way to introduce one’s own preferences to others; saying that another’s taste sucks ain’t it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/63 "2007-07-20T20:00:43Z")
[QUOTE=Plynck] No, I \*know \*she turns my stomach. No thinking required. 😃 But I’m not saying or implying that she turns anyone else’s stomach. Just that I shouldn’t eat before listening. [/quote] Right. And neither does, “XYZ sucks” imply anything about anyone else’s taste, either. If stating, “XYZ sucks,” is implying that anyone who thinks they don’t suck has poor taste, why does “XYZ turns my stomach” not imply exactly the same thing? > [@](#): > > I would only say that saying “So-and-so is awesome” is a positively expressed statement (often overused or overly enthusiastic, to be sure), but has no implied reflection on another’s tastes , while saying “So-and-so sucks” is negative and does just that. _Neither_ statement implies anything about anyone else’s taste. There’s no real difference between the two statements. They’re both expressing absolute opinions about a subjective subject, at different extremes of the spectrum. “XYZ sucks” implies that people who like XYZ have no taste to exactly the same degree that “XYZ is awesome” imples that people who don’t like XYZ are ignorant. Which is to say, not at all. But if you’re going to call someone out for one example, you need to be calling people out for the other example, because both people are doing exactly the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2007, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/64 "2007-07-20T22:01:37Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] But if you’re going to call someone out for one example, you need to be calling people out for the other example, because both people are doing exactly the same thing. [/QUOTE] Very well. If you can tell me with complete honesty that the feeling you have if a person says that something you like sucks is _exactly_ the same feeling you have if that person tells you that something you don’t like is awesome, then I will drop this argument here. Otherwise, no, they are not exactly the same. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/65 "2007-07-21T00:56:33Z")
[QUOTE=Plynck] Very well. If you can tell me with complete honesty that the feeling you have if a person says that something you like sucks is _exactly_ the same feeling you have if that person tells you that something you don’t like is awesome, then I will drop this argument here. Otherwise, no, they are not exactly the same. [/QUOTE] Yes. In both cases, they’re talking about what _they_ like. To assume it’s also a comment on me, personally, is absurd, and more than a little immature. I am not defined by the things I like: an insult against them is not an insult against me. ---
**Author:** ![Plynck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Plynck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plynck)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/66 "2007-07-21T13:58:52Z")
Then you are correct, I am obviously too thin-skinned for this discussion, and will now bow out. ::tips cap:: See you around the campus plynck ---
**Author:** ![EdwinBirdsong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@EdwinBirdsong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdwinBirdsong)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/67 "2007-07-21T16:47:33Z")
Well, this thread sure took a turn for the weird, huh? Back to the subject of music… > [@](#): > > A lot of this seems to be centered around the Falcon Ridge Folk Festival, where the Joni clones (Dar Williams, Richard Shindell, Erin McKeown, etc.) and the novelty boppers (the Nields, Girlyman, Moxy Fruvous, Eddie from Ohio, etc.) come together to fellate each other for a few days. I’ve been to Falcon Ridge in the past, and it was just as sucky as you describe. I’d rather scoop my eyeballs out with a rusty spoon than listen to the (to me) bland folk stylings of Dar Williams or the dork-rock of Moxy Fruvous. Then again, If you take those artists as being representative of folk music these days, you’re bound to be disappointed. There’s a lot of interesting music being made today that could be considered ‘folk,’ of course. Take Charalambides… they veer between dark, sweeping, lysergic desert soundscapes and more traditional acoustic sounds. _Vintage Burden_ is as good a modern folk record as I’ve heard in a while, and much more accessible than some of their other output. What about Meg Baird and Espers? I’ve seen them open for Vashti Bunyan (who also has a great new record out called _Lookaftering_) and they killed it, just great stuff. There’s Juana Molina, the Argentinian folk musician and former TV sketch comedienne, whose music is acoustic-based but includes electronic elements and weirdness. Her last few records have been absolutely amazing. And you know what? Animal Collective’s \*Sung Tongs \*is still a damn good record, no matter the hype. That’s the tip of the iceberg. Check Fursaxa, or Ghost, or Sir Richard Bishop, or Sun City Girls, or Sharron Krauss (for a most trad approach). The comp _Folk Off - New Folk and Psychedelia from the British Isles and North America_ might also have some stuff you’d like. There’s like a million others, too, and all miles away from the safe, whitebread sounds of the Falcon Ridge set. And as far as being “weird”–I generally consider that a positive thing when listening to music. The mention above of Incredible String Band made me think of two older UK folk acts in whose classic records no hint of Pete Seeger could be found (thankfully): \*\*C.O.B. \*_–_ Moyshe McStiff…\*: Absolutely brilliant, beautiful and out-there 1972 album from Clive Palmer (ISB alum) and company. Words don’t do it justice. I guarantee those modern freak-folk guys and gals listen to this album on repeat. **Comus** – _First Utterance_: This is one of the darkest, weirdest, most bizarre folk records ever made. It also happens to be one of the best post-1970 folk records to come out of the UK. For once, I think Wikipedia got a music description pretty much right: > [@](#): > > The music on First Utterance could be described as acoustic art rock that blends elements of eastern percussion, early folk and animalian vocals. The music evokes many feelings, but the most dominant are fear, confusion, despair with occassional passages of tranquil beauty such as can be found in The Herald. Apart from three tracks on “First Utterance” (The Herald, Diana and Bitten) most of the songs were written by Roger Wootton and arranged by Glenn Goring. There’s very little in the way of pretension in Wootton’s vocal delivery - his angst sounds utterly genuine almost bordering on the insane. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2007, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/68 "2007-07-21T17:07:12Z")
[QUOTE=EdwinBirdsong] I’ve been to Falcon Ridge in the past, and it was just as sucky as you describe. I’d rather scoop my eyeballs out with a rusty spoon than listen to the (to me) bland folk stylings of Dar Williams or the dork-rock of Moxy Fruvous. Then again, If you take those artists as being representative of folk music these days, you’re bound to be disappointed. [/QUOTE] I have to admit, the organizers of Falcon Ridge don’t like to take a lot of risks (Dan Bern is about as outre as they get). But I can sort of understand that – you throw a big festival and you want people to come. So you have to stack the schedule with names that people have heard of. Still, it always irritates me that I’ll see Jack Hardy and Andrew Calhoun there selling albums but they rarely get to perform. Not much risk of you seeing Moxy Fruvous there, though. According to their Wiki page, their last concert was in 2000 and the web page hasn’t been updated since 2002. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2007, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/69 "2007-07-22T13:03:30Z")
Sigh. Here we go again. It is possible to disagree about art/music/entertainment. It is possible for people to have different taste. Our hope is that it is possible to disagree, and NOT insult each other. For all practical purposes, I don’t see a need to put “I think that…” in front of every statement related to taste, to subjective comments, to likes and dislikes. That’s pretty much assumed. At the same time, I think the occasional sprinkling of “in my opinion” helps make statement seem less like pronouncements and more like discussion. In any case, for cryin’ out loud, please COOL IT. The question about whether a person equates her self/soul/inner core with her taste/judgement in entertainment is an interesting one, for a different thread. This thread is about folk music, not about philosophy or metaphysics. ---
**Author:** ![buns3000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c89c15/32.png) [@buns3000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buns3000)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/70 "2007-07-23T08:29:13Z")
[QUOTE=Big Bad Voodoo Lou] I recently heard a song called “Japan” by a new group called CocoRosie, that is supposedly the new indie-hipster darlings, and also a folk act of sorts. It was one of the worst things I ever heard – sounded like Bjork (who I also despise) recorded a children’s album. [/QUOTE] I would like to appoint you director of programming at my favourite local independent radio station where that steaming turd is getting a good run at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2007, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/71 "2007-07-23T14:07:33Z")
[QUOTE=buns3000] I would like to appoint you director of programming at my favourite local independent radio station where that steaming turd is getting a good run at the moment. [/QUOTE] I would be honored! Seriously, when I heard that song on MY favorite local independent radio station, first I thought it was bad Bjork, and then I thought it was a bad joke. And the college radio DJs KEEP playing it! ---
**Author:** ![folkmusicer901](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7c8e57/32.png) [@folkmusicer901](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/folkmusicer901)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/72 "2023-08-26T21:17:03Z")
bump! I’d like to continue this conversation, having just encountered this thread. here is my response the the original question. folk should be the worldliest of music. what is called indie folk these days is far from worldly. it smacks of collegiate elitism and sophisticated remove. that is true even of dar williams, whose music is tonally pretty raw and not produced. of course, the true folk traditions still live on, despite the pretenders, and will never die. I don’t think it’s far fetched to say that folk is not suffering, just its image. bluegrass is pretty good these days, for example, and british isles fiddling. of course, the novelty obsession has been part of popular american folk at least since the inception of the 20th century, with vaudeville banjo acts and minstrel shows and all that claiming a great deal of the folk market. taking a different tack on it, white people no longer have a monopoly on rabble rousing and social justice in the popular mind. look at the popularity of rap and hip hop and nonwhite people in general in popular music and imagine how different the scene must look now than the 1920s. overall, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff to have a good grasp on folk music, and that means developing a taste for the good stuff, getting to know folk musicians, going to jams, playing an instrument yourself, etc. remember, american folk music either came from europe or is rap, hip hop, jazz, or pow wow drumming. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193/73 "2023-08-26T23:51:51Z")
I’m so glad this got bumped; it’s a great discussion… of a fundamentally flawed OP. > [@TLDRIDKJKLOLFTW](#): > > What’s **up** with modern folk music? Yeah, and what’s **up** with modern rock and roll music? I’m so tempted to start a sister thread: **“Let’s talk about modern rock and/or roll music, and why it’s weird and silly for the most part.”** I mean, why don’t we have meaningful songs like _Last Kiss,_ or _Tell Laura I Love Her,_ or _Teen Angel?_ The K-pop boy bands and auto-tuned pop princesses these days couldn’t even lip-sync a decent Teen Death Ballad, let alone write one! [/sarcasm] My point being, cherry-picking a few examples from a narrow view of a music genre, you could lament the changes in any type of music. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lets-talk-about-modern-folk-music-and-why-its-weird-and-silly-for-the-most-part/412193.md?page=3)